1
00:00:03,470 --> 00:00:01,699
I have an interview coming up in a

2
00:00:06,260 --> 00:00:03,480
minute with a very excellent doctors you

3
00:00:10,190 --> 00:00:06,270
urban professor of comparative religions

4
00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:10,200
at Ohio State University and a guy nice

5
00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:11,730
enough to put up with my shenanigans

6
00:00:18,109 --> 00:00:15,570
here some eclipses the part that

7
00:00:21,380 --> 00:00:18,119
concerns me is we have reason to believe

8
00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:21,390
that chaos and men who stare at goats I

9
00:00:27,470 --> 00:00:24,510
mean all this stuff is going on and so

10
00:00:30,460 --> 00:00:27,480
I'm just not sure that we can bracket

11
00:00:32,959 --> 00:00:30,470
that back into oh you know those

12
00:00:35,930 --> 00:00:32,969
Scientologists they were kind of playing

13
00:00:38,450 --> 00:00:35,940
off of the Cold War jitters then we'll

14
00:00:42,470 --> 00:00:38,460
have but I guess I would say that I

15
00:00:44,540 --> 00:00:42,480
can't know as a historian a religion

16
00:00:45,830 --> 00:00:44,550
whether there's a reality with what

17
00:00:47,750 --> 00:00:45,840
they're talking about but I can say that

18
00:00:48,889 --> 00:00:47,760
they certainly believed there was and

19
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:48,899
took it very seriously

20
00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:52,050
you can also point to examples within

21
00:00:57,500 --> 00:00:54,690
Christianity where the leadership was

22
00:00:59,630 --> 00:00:57,510
incredibly corrupt I mean the Middle

23
00:01:02,420 --> 00:00:59,640
Ages are filled with bad Pope's right

24
00:01:05,179 --> 00:01:02,430
bad Pope's having bad Cardinals that

25
00:01:07,550 --> 00:01:05,189
doesn't mean that the entire Catholic

26
00:01:09,590 --> 00:01:07,560
Church from top to bottom is a corrupt

27
00:01:13,250 --> 00:01:09,600
organization wait hold on

28
00:01:15,710 --> 00:01:13,260
full stop we don't know that that's I

29
00:01:18,710 --> 00:01:15,720
guess the part the part that I I want to

30
00:01:22,039 --> 00:01:18,720
say we're not doing our job if we don't

31
00:01:24,859 --> 00:01:22,049
ask that question beyond the record

32
00:01:27,350 --> 00:01:24,869
Oprah Winfrey new-age thing that most

33
00:01:30,460 --> 00:01:27,360
people get what he's saying about

34
00:01:33,969 --> 00:01:30,470
science the science of consciousness is

35
00:01:36,499 --> 00:01:33,979
much much closer to what leading

36
00:01:38,679 --> 00:01:36,509
researchers are saying so I guess

37
00:01:42,620 --> 00:01:38,689
returning to kind of this earlier point

38
00:01:45,679 --> 00:01:42,630
if you can't get consciousness right if

39
00:01:48,740 --> 00:01:45,689
you're playing with consciousness is an

40
00:01:50,810 --> 00:01:48,750
illusion as your atheist colleague no

41
00:01:52,969 --> 00:01:50,820
doubt believes you're not even in the

42
00:01:54,889 --> 00:01:52,979
game yeah that's interesting point and I

43
00:01:58,580 --> 00:01:54,899
guess I would say that well this couple

44
00:02:00,649 --> 00:01:58,590
answers to that question that there is a

45
00:02:02,990 --> 00:02:00,659
movement in religious studies and other

46
00:02:04,580 --> 00:02:03,000
fields that is extremely interested in

47
00:02:07,039 --> 00:02:04,590
consciousness from different

48
00:02:10,010 --> 00:02:07,049
perspectives but in my own work I mean

49
00:02:12,380 --> 00:02:10,020
I'm a historian and so I look at what

50
00:02:12,950 --> 00:02:12,390
people do and the texts they leave

51
00:02:16,580 --> 00:02:12,960
behind

52
00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:16,590
and what we can sort of see

53
00:02:20,710 --> 00:02:18,690
welcome to skeptical where we explore

54
00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:20,720
controversial science and spirituality

55
00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:23,610
with leading researchers thinkers and

56
00:02:26,690 --> 00:02:24,570
their critics

57
00:02:30,020 --> 00:02:26,700
I'm your host Alex Karras and today

58
00:02:32,870 --> 00:02:30,030
we're joined by dr. Hugh Urban from The

59
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:32,880
Ohio State University I'm going to have

60
00:02:37,970 --> 00:02:35,010
to ask you why so many people from Ohio

61
00:02:40,930 --> 00:02:37,980
State insist that you say the Ohio State

62
00:02:44,630 --> 00:02:40,940
but I guess we'll look into that maybe

63
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:44,640
anyways he is a top-notch scholar in

64
00:02:49,700 --> 00:02:46,890
religious studies he's written some

65
00:02:51,310 --> 00:02:49,710
terrific books including a couple we're

66
00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:51,320
going to talk about today when I saw

67
00:02:57,920 --> 00:02:55,730
Scientology or non Osho and maybe even

68
00:03:00,350 --> 00:02:57,930
talk a little bit about his work in

69
00:03:03,110 --> 00:03:00,360
Tantra he has developed quite a

70
00:03:06,050 --> 00:03:03,120
reputation within his field the net-net

71
00:03:08,990 --> 00:03:06,060
is we have a really smart guy with us

72
00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:09,000
today dr. urban thanks for joining me on

73
00:03:14,420 --> 00:03:11,130
sceptical thank you so much for having

74
00:03:16,940 --> 00:03:14,430
me it's my pleasure well as I was saying

75
00:03:19,340 --> 00:03:16,950
and singing your praises I think you've

76
00:03:23,810 --> 00:03:19,350
done some great work and I'm surprised

77
00:03:26,870 --> 00:03:23,820
that there isn't more out there on what

78
00:03:29,990 --> 00:03:26,880
you do but we're gonna fix that a little

79
00:03:32,870 --> 00:03:30,000
bit right now you're as I said a

80
00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:32,880
professor of Religious Studies and you

81
00:03:38,420 --> 00:03:35,490
have some really pretty cool interest

82
00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:38,430
areas that I want to highlight for

83
00:03:44,900 --> 00:03:42,290
people so you are interested in secrecy

84
00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:44,910
religion and a lot of these questions

85
00:03:49,310 --> 00:03:47,330
that kind of are skeptical related

86
00:03:52,700 --> 00:03:49,320
secrecy what some people would call

87
00:03:54,530 --> 00:03:52,710
conspiracies but also you're about the

88
00:03:56,570 --> 00:03:54,540
relationship between religion and

89
00:03:58,670 --> 00:03:56,580
culture and power and stuff like that

90
00:04:02,000 --> 00:03:58,680
but at the same time you're scratching

91
00:04:05,750 --> 00:04:02,010
around in this spiritual big picture who

92
00:04:08,390 --> 00:04:05,760
are we why are we here maybe you want to

93
00:04:10,450 --> 00:04:08,400
fine-tune that a little bit and tell us

94
00:04:13,340 --> 00:04:10,460
who you really are

95
00:04:16,250 --> 00:04:13,350
Ohio State well you're assuming I know

96
00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:16,260
who I really am but yeah as you said I'm

97
00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:17,730
professor of Religious Studies at Ohio

98
00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:19,770
State I got my PhD from University of

99
00:04:25,490 --> 00:04:22,890
Chicago and I teach in the areas of

100
00:04:26,140 --> 00:04:25,500
South Asian religions and also new

101
00:04:28,719 --> 00:04:26,150
religious

102
00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:28,729
in the united states and sort of the big

103
00:04:33,790 --> 00:04:31,370
large question I'm interested in is

104
00:04:35,500 --> 00:04:33,800
secrecy and religion that is the

105
00:04:36,850 --> 00:04:35,510
question of why some groups choose to

106
00:04:39,310 --> 00:04:36,860
keep aspects of their beliefs and

107
00:04:42,580 --> 00:04:39,320
practices closed to outsiders and then

108
00:04:44,770 --> 00:04:42,590
what are the larger you know social

109
00:04:46,900 --> 00:04:44,780
political historical implications of

110
00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:46,910
that secrecy and then within that sort

111
00:04:53,379 --> 00:04:50,650
of large question area I'm interested in

112
00:04:55,540 --> 00:04:53,389
religions of India one area I work on

113
00:04:58,060 --> 00:04:55,550
particularly Hinduism in northeast India

114
00:04:59,290 --> 00:04:58,070
and then new religions in the United

115
00:05:02,020 --> 00:04:59,300
States which is what led me to

116
00:05:03,370 --> 00:05:02,030
Scientology and then the Osho book you

117
00:05:05,650 --> 00:05:03,380
mentioned sort of bridges those two

118
00:05:07,090 --> 00:05:05,660
areas by looking at a new movement that

119
00:05:08,650 --> 00:05:07,100
begins in India and then comes to the

120
00:05:11,469 --> 00:05:08,660
United States in like 80s and then

121
00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:11,479
spreads globally from there so there's a

122
00:05:16,090 --> 00:05:14,570
there's a lot really to deconstruct here

123
00:05:19,629 --> 00:05:16,100
and we're gonna try and do our best

124
00:05:23,710 --> 00:05:19,639
because when people jump into I think

125
00:05:26,500 --> 00:05:23,720
people normal people jump into religious

126
00:05:28,990 --> 00:05:26,510
studies a lot of times it winds up

127
00:05:31,900 --> 00:05:29,000
sounding a lot different than what they

128
00:05:35,170 --> 00:05:31,910
expected we've had Jeff [\h__\h] on the

129
00:05:39,250 --> 00:05:35,180
show a couple times great guy good

130
00:05:42,010 --> 00:05:39,260
friend of mine Louis Basilica not really

131
00:05:44,260 --> 00:05:42,020
in your field but a number of folks and

132
00:05:47,980 --> 00:05:44,270
I always feel like there's a certain

133
00:05:50,409 --> 00:05:47,990
tension in terms of where you go in

134
00:05:55,050 --> 00:05:50,419
comparative studies at a university

135
00:05:57,730 --> 00:05:55,060
level and this kind of deeper spiritual

136
00:05:58,839 --> 00:05:57,740
understanding or attempt at a spiritual

137
00:06:01,570 --> 00:05:58,849
understanding even when you were

138
00:06:03,129 --> 00:06:01,580
equipping about you know it presupposes

139
00:06:06,070 --> 00:06:03,139
that you know who you are which is

140
00:06:08,020 --> 00:06:06,080
really got a very deep question well

141
00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:08,030
those two worlds what else can you tell

142
00:06:14,050 --> 00:06:11,330
us about who you are beyond the

143
00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:14,060
professor thing and maybe getting at

144
00:06:18,490 --> 00:06:16,970
this spiritual stuff because you're

145
00:06:20,110 --> 00:06:18,500
obviously interested in some of that

146
00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:20,120
you're interested in religion but you're

147
00:06:26,110 --> 00:06:22,610
also interested in sure as Tunes that

148
00:06:27,670 --> 00:06:26,120
religion proposes to answer yeah I hope

149
00:06:29,890 --> 00:06:27,680
you have some time because it's a long

150
00:06:31,689 --> 00:06:29,900
set of questions but I've always been

151
00:06:33,930 --> 00:06:31,699
interested in religion and spirituality

152
00:06:37,330 --> 00:06:33,940
I grew up in a pretty religious

153
00:06:39,760 --> 00:06:37,340
Episcopalian family my grandfather and

154
00:06:41,230 --> 00:06:39,770
uncle and great-grandfather all priests

155
00:06:43,210 --> 00:06:41,240
old church and my own father was a

156
00:06:45,309 --> 00:06:43,220
pretty religious guy and I was an

157
00:06:47,469 --> 00:06:45,319
acolyte and did all that stuff growing

158
00:06:48,730 --> 00:06:47,479
up and then when I was in college I

159
00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:48,740
started taking courses on world

160
00:06:53,950 --> 00:06:51,289
religions and I got really interested in

161
00:06:56,649 --> 00:06:53,960
India and in Hinduism and Buddhism so I

162
00:06:58,390 --> 00:06:56,659
did a semester in Bodhgaya which is

163
00:06:59,469 --> 00:06:58,400
where the Buddha became enlightened when

164
00:07:00,990 --> 00:06:59,479
I was a college student

165
00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:01,000
and that sort of got me hooked on

166
00:07:05,619 --> 00:07:03,530
Eastern religions although I've always

167
00:07:11,110 --> 00:07:05,629
maintained an interest in Christianity

168
00:07:13,659 --> 00:07:11,120
as well and so I kind of in my own life

169
00:07:15,790 --> 00:07:13,669
and thinking sort of separate the

170
00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:15,800
personal from the academic to a certain

171
00:07:20,620 --> 00:07:19,130
degree because I think in the academic

172
00:07:23,020 --> 00:07:20,630
study of religion we're looking at the

173
00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:23,030
role of religion in history and in

174
00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:25,370
society and in culture and in things we

175
00:07:32,439 --> 00:07:28,610
can see and measure and text that we can

176
00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:32,449
read whereas at least personally I think

177
00:07:38,950 --> 00:07:37,130
I try to keep my own spiritual beliefs

178
00:07:40,209 --> 00:07:38,960
out of the academic work that I can do

179
00:07:43,510 --> 00:07:40,219
although there are other people such as

180
00:07:45,399 --> 00:07:43,520
Jeff kipo who integrate those two more

181
00:07:46,659 --> 00:07:45,409
than I would Jeff's a good friend of

182
00:07:48,939 --> 00:07:46,669
mine and we disagree on a lot of things

183
00:07:51,999 --> 00:07:48,949
but I think there are different ways you

184
00:07:56,709 --> 00:07:52,009
can navigate between your own beliefs

185
00:07:58,330 --> 00:07:56,719
and but you did even there kind of

186
00:08:00,189 --> 00:07:58,340
talked about the integration problem

187
00:08:02,019 --> 00:08:00,199
right I love that you kind of spell it

188
00:08:04,180 --> 00:08:02,029
out that kind of Jeff is kind of out

189
00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:04,190
there saying yeah you know and you're

190
00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:06,610
kind of kind of more holding back to the

191
00:08:14,649 --> 00:08:10,810
academic line what is what is about that

192
00:08:16,180 --> 00:08:14,659
tension if you will within religious

193
00:08:17,769 --> 00:08:16,190
studies well your hundred percent right

194
00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:17,779
that's the central tension at the heart

195
00:08:22,870 --> 00:08:19,370
of the field of Religious Studies from

196
00:08:24,790 --> 00:08:22,880
the very beginning because religious

197
00:08:27,159 --> 00:08:24,800
studies in many ways grows out of

198
00:08:29,950 --> 00:08:27,169
theology programs and there prior to the

199
00:08:31,719 --> 00:08:29,960
1960's you didn't really have religious

200
00:08:33,370 --> 00:08:31,729
studies or world religions programs you

201
00:08:35,260 --> 00:08:33,380
had theology programs when you had

202
00:08:38,110 --> 00:08:35,270
religious studies in sociology or

203
00:08:40,269 --> 00:08:38,120
anthropology or psychology and it's

204
00:08:41,409 --> 00:08:40,279
really in the 1960s that the field of

205
00:08:43,029 --> 00:08:41,419
aloof Studies in the United States

206
00:08:44,860 --> 00:08:43,039
begins to develop me and now have

207
00:08:49,750 --> 00:08:44,870
departments of religions that teach

208
00:08:52,890 --> 00:08:49,760
world religions in a non-denominational

209
00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:52,900
non theological way but

210
00:08:57,250 --> 00:08:56,090
many people come to the field of

211
00:08:59,350 --> 00:08:57,260
religious studies because they are

212
00:09:00,760 --> 00:08:59,360
wrestling with religious questions of

213
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:00,770
their own and that's how I came to it

214
00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:02,330
for example I was coming from a

215
00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:03,290
Christian background I was very

216
00:09:06,100 --> 00:09:04,850
interested in Eastern religions when I

217
00:09:08,380 --> 00:09:06,110
was trying to figure all that out

218
00:09:09,730 --> 00:09:08,390
so everyone who comes to the field has

219
00:09:12,310 --> 00:09:09,740
to kind of work through those questions

220
00:09:15,790 --> 00:09:12,320
in some way and sort of figure out how

221
00:09:19,660 --> 00:09:15,800
they navigate to academic and historical

222
00:09:20,890 --> 00:09:19,670
study and whatever spiritual questions

223
00:09:23,380 --> 00:09:20,900
of their own they may be wrestling with

224
00:09:26,170 --> 00:09:23,390
and so in the field of studies you see

225
00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:26,180
some like Jeff who are much more upfront

226
00:09:30,130 --> 00:09:28,850
about his beliefs and then you have

227
00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:30,140
others like one of my professors is

228
00:09:35,170 --> 00:09:32,330
Bruce Lincoln there's you know clearly

229
00:09:36,730 --> 00:09:35,180
an atheist and a Marxist and really

230
00:09:38,470 --> 00:09:36,740
wants to and critically interrogate

231
00:09:40,300 --> 00:09:38,480
religious claims and so there's a whole

232
00:09:42,070 --> 00:09:40,310
spectrum and everyone has to sort of

233
00:09:45,700 --> 00:09:42,080
figure out where they fit on that

234
00:09:47,530 --> 00:09:45,710
spectrum and and it leaf in my case it's

235
00:09:48,670 --> 00:09:47,540
a question I have continued to think

236
00:09:53,020 --> 00:09:48,680
about in my own position has shifted

237
00:09:56,410 --> 00:09:53,030
over the years quite a bit awesome I

238
00:09:57,910 --> 00:09:56,420
think that's a great lead-in to two of

239
00:10:00,880 --> 00:09:57,920
the books that we are going to talk

240
00:10:04,060 --> 00:10:00,890
about today let's start with the

241
00:10:07,510 --> 00:10:04,070
Scientology book it's been out for a few

242
00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:07,520
years now but it's certainly an

243
00:10:12,100 --> 00:10:09,290
important book in the field was

244
00:10:15,910 --> 00:10:12,110
published in 2013 the title is the

245
00:10:18,460 --> 00:10:15,920
Church of Scientology a history of a new

246
00:10:20,980 --> 00:10:18,470
religion and our friend Jeff has written

247
00:10:22,990 --> 00:10:20,990
a very outstanding blurb so I'll go

248
00:10:26,070 --> 00:10:23,000
ahead and read that until now there was

249
00:10:28,690 --> 00:10:26,080
no extensive scholarship on Scientology

250
00:10:31,740 --> 00:10:28,700
with Urban's powerful and provocative

251
00:10:34,870 --> 00:10:31,750
new book we are without question on

252
00:10:39,430 --> 00:10:34,880
radically new historical and theoretical

253
00:10:41,380 --> 00:10:39,440
ground this is a major achievement how

254
00:10:45,820 --> 00:10:41,390
nice and how true a lot of people say

255
00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:45,830
the same thing so maybe everybody knows

256
00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:48,710
or thinks they know until they read your

257
00:10:54,310 --> 00:10:52,490
book the story of Scientology but maybe

258
00:10:57,910 --> 00:10:54,320
you can start with just the kind of

259
00:10:59,620 --> 00:10:57,920
basics who what where when why is a long

260
00:11:03,090 --> 00:10:59,630
one so we won't get into that but the

261
00:11:05,130 --> 00:11:03,100
basics of the book and Scientology

262
00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:05,140
okay so the book actually grew out of my

263
00:11:08,910 --> 00:11:07,210
own teaching here at Ohio State because

264
00:11:11,250 --> 00:11:08,920
I teach a regular course on world

265
00:11:12,270 --> 00:11:11,260
religions and I like to start out the

266
00:11:14,690 --> 00:11:12,280
course were the question of what is

267
00:11:17,010 --> 00:11:14,700
religion and what isn't religion and how

268
00:11:18,270 --> 00:11:17,020
how that question gets answered and

269
00:11:21,030 --> 00:11:18,280
what's at stake and calling something a

270
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:21,040
religion or a business or cult and so I

271
00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:23,170
start out with a controversial test case

272
00:11:27,300 --> 00:11:24,730
and then get the students to debate it

273
00:11:29,190 --> 00:11:27,310
and I had been using Scientology as my

274
00:11:31,260 --> 00:11:29,200
controversial test case because it's a

275
00:11:34,020 --> 00:11:31,270
brilliant example for that question

276
00:11:36,330 --> 00:11:34,030
because it fought a 25-year war with the

277
00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:36,340
IRS over its tax-exempt status as a

278
00:11:40,770 --> 00:11:39,250
different charitable organization it's

279
00:11:42,060 --> 00:11:40,780
now recognized in the US but it's not

280
00:11:45,180 --> 00:11:42,070
recognized in other countries such as

281
00:11:46,950 --> 00:11:45,190
France it's widely attacked as a cult in

282
00:11:48,450 --> 00:11:46,960
the media so it's a really good test

283
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:48,460
case for thinking about that question

284
00:11:55,890 --> 00:11:52,210
and so that sort of led me to developing

285
00:11:57,660 --> 00:11:55,900
that whole set of issues into the book

286
00:11:59,820 --> 00:11:57,670
and what I tried to do is just trace the

287
00:12:02,040 --> 00:11:59,830
history of Scientology and really

288
00:12:03,980 --> 00:12:02,050
interrogate the question of how it

289
00:12:06,150 --> 00:12:03,990
developed what its relation to

290
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:06,160
surrounding American society from the

291
00:12:09,930 --> 00:12:08,410
50s to the present has been and then

292
00:12:13,050 --> 00:12:09,940
this larger question of how it became

293
00:12:15,210 --> 00:12:13,060
recognized as a religion in the US and

294
00:12:16,620 --> 00:12:15,220
what sort of at stake and calling

295
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:16,630
something religion rather than something

296
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:19,810
else so there's a lot of history there

297
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:23,290
that you do a great job of just digging

298
00:12:27,810 --> 00:12:25,330
in and again that's why people are kind

299
00:12:29,310 --> 00:12:27,820
of praising the scholarship is you're

300
00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:29,320
not just shooting from the hip here

301
00:12:32,940 --> 00:12:31,450
you're thousands of doc you can't

302
00:12:35,250 --> 00:12:32,950
imagine how many thousands of pages you

303
00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:35,260
read to to put this together but the

304
00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:37,450
story you're telling at the end of the

305
00:12:44,130 --> 00:12:42,490
day does kind of challenge us with some

306
00:12:47,580 --> 00:12:44,140
of the ideas that we think we know about

307
00:12:50,970 --> 00:12:47,590
Scientology that you've just alluded to

308
00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:50,980
so most people dismiss Scientology as a

309
00:12:56,430 --> 00:12:54,730
cult a profit oriented cult and I'm not

310
00:12:58,320 --> 00:12:56,440
sure that that that isn't my position

311
00:13:01,170 --> 00:12:58,330
that is my position let me go one step

312
00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:01,180
further but what would you what is

313
00:13:07,140 --> 00:13:04,090
important that you need to add to that

314
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:07,150
conversation why is why is it important

315
00:13:13,560 --> 00:13:10,090
to as you say kind of test the

316
00:13:15,450 --> 00:13:13,570
boundaries of what this movement means

317
00:13:16,190 --> 00:13:15,460
in terms of our understanding of

318
00:13:17,540 --> 00:13:16,200
religion

319
00:13:19,460 --> 00:13:17,550
why is that important well a number of

320
00:13:21,769 --> 00:13:19,470
things a number of things one is it

321
00:13:23,269 --> 00:13:21,779
raises central and profound questions of

322
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:23,279
religious freedom that have been with us

323
00:13:26,990 --> 00:13:25,200
from the very beginning and you can

324
00:13:28,639 --> 00:13:27,000
think of any number of other examples of

325
00:13:31,970 --> 00:13:28,649
controversial movements that were at one

326
00:13:34,189 --> 00:13:31,980
time considered weird or dangerous cults

327
00:13:36,590 --> 00:13:34,199
and are now recognized as quite

328
00:13:37,939 --> 00:13:36,600
mainstream their most obvious example is

329
00:13:39,710 --> 00:13:37,949
the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day

330
00:13:42,110 --> 00:13:39,720
saints or the Mormons when they appear

331
00:13:44,420 --> 00:13:42,120
on the scene in America and the mid 19th

332
00:13:47,090 --> 00:13:44,430
century they're also seen as weird and

333
00:13:50,060 --> 00:13:47,100
dangerous and cult they're chased

334
00:13:51,620 --> 00:13:50,070
halfway across the country but now

335
00:13:54,680 --> 00:13:51,630
they're one of the largest denominations

336
00:13:57,170 --> 00:13:54,690
in the world and maybe some people still

337
00:13:58,819 --> 00:13:57,180
considered them a weird cult but for the

338
00:14:01,639 --> 00:13:58,829
most part they're like recognizes quite

339
00:14:03,170 --> 00:14:01,649
mainstream let's let's dive into that

340
00:14:04,340 --> 00:14:03,180
for a minute I have a lot of thoughts on

341
00:14:07,939 --> 00:14:04,350
that but I don't want to kind of cloud

342
00:14:09,949 --> 00:14:07,949
that right now that movement what is

343
00:14:12,019 --> 00:14:09,959
that that's what you're really exploring

344
00:14:12,379 --> 00:14:12,029
and a couple of levels that movement

345
00:14:16,569 --> 00:14:12,389
from

346
00:14:19,069 --> 00:14:16,579
fringy cultish ignore those weirdos to

347
00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:19,079
mainstream run for president of the

348
00:14:23,689 --> 00:14:20,010
United States

349
00:14:27,530 --> 00:14:23,699
as a cultural phenomenon as a cultural

350
00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:27,540
movement is interesting but does that

351
00:14:32,780 --> 00:14:30,690
really get to the other part the other

352
00:14:37,670 --> 00:14:32,790
tension point that we were talking about

353
00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:37,680
in terms of the religious / spiritual

354
00:14:43,630 --> 00:14:40,050
part yeah I mean fake is still fake

355
00:14:45,590 --> 00:14:43,640
right that's a legitimate question but

356
00:14:49,939 --> 00:14:45,600
the United States from the very

357
00:14:54,050 --> 00:14:49,949
beginning has made freedom of expression

358
00:14:56,660 --> 00:14:54,060
one of its founding principles and so

359
00:14:59,000 --> 00:14:56,670
and the courts historically have tend to

360
00:15:00,470 --> 00:14:59,010
have a very hands-off attitude about

361
00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:00,480
religious belief so for example in the

362
00:15:05,870 --> 00:15:03,930
case of Mormonism the courts basically

363
00:15:07,340 --> 00:15:05,880
said you can believe whatever you want

364
00:15:09,170 --> 00:15:07,350
because we have freedom of religious

365
00:15:11,059 --> 00:15:09,180
expression you just can't do whatever

366
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:11,069
you want so in the case of polygamy and

367
00:15:15,439 --> 00:15:13,410
Mormonism said basically you know

368
00:15:18,290 --> 00:15:15,449
believe whatever you want that's fine

369
00:15:22,879 --> 00:15:18,300
but you can't do things that are against

370
00:15:25,340 --> 00:15:22,889
existing laws right so I think respect

371
00:15:27,170 --> 00:15:25,350
for freedom of expression is so deeply

372
00:15:30,220 --> 00:15:27,180
ingrained into the fabric of US history

373
00:15:32,750 --> 00:15:30,230
and law and interpretations of the

374
00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:32,760
Constitution and the Bill of Rights that

375
00:15:37,070 --> 00:15:34,920
it comes up again and again and again

376
00:15:39,770 --> 00:15:37,080
when you have these fringe groups that

377
00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:39,780
sort of push the boundaries and test the

378
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:41,250
limits of what we mean by freedom of

379
00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:42,810
religious expression that's why I find

380
00:15:47,060 --> 00:15:44,970
groups like Scientology so interesting

381
00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:47,070
for thinking about that but so what is

382
00:15:50,870 --> 00:15:48,990
religious free to mean how far can we

383
00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:50,880
push it because there are some cases

384
00:15:54,740 --> 00:15:52,110
where actually court that said no you

385
00:15:57,050 --> 00:15:54,750
can't push it that far and Scientology

386
00:15:59,930 --> 00:15:57,060
is really right on the edge of that

387
00:16:01,790 --> 00:15:59,940
debate but it's really right on the edge

388
00:16:03,530 --> 00:16:01,800
of that debate because it's pushing not

389
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:03,540
just the courts in the legal system it's

390
00:16:07,910 --> 00:16:06,090
pushing our buttons it's pushing all our

391
00:16:09,740 --> 00:16:07,920
sensibilities about what we think is

392
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:09,750
right what we threat is wrong at the

393
00:16:15,980 --> 00:16:13,050
kind of moral level and then when we see

394
00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:15,990
you know these groups carrying on in a

395
00:16:22,610 --> 00:16:19,770
way that we judge as amoral along with

396
00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:22,620
not being religious as we've come to

397
00:16:27,740 --> 00:16:24,570
understand it that's where the friction

398
00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:27,750
is and I love that you can can step back

399
00:16:31,220 --> 00:16:29,370
and analyze that and I think that brings

400
00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:31,230
a lot to the to the table I mean that's

401
00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:33,510
what that's what the scholarship is

402
00:16:38,060 --> 00:16:36,090
really about and is it is fantastic but

403
00:16:39,770 --> 00:16:38,070
at the same time I mean let's get down

404
00:16:42,650 --> 00:16:39,780
to it where most people sit and most

405
00:16:46,580 --> 00:16:42,660
people live now talk about like here's

406
00:16:49,430 --> 00:16:46,590
an example from the book you cite the

407
00:16:52,940 --> 00:16:49,440
money angle and it'll ron Hubbard the

408
00:16:54,590 --> 00:16:52,950
founder of this religious movement which

409
00:16:56,510 --> 00:16:54,600
when he founded it it wasn't even a

410
00:16:59,210 --> 00:16:56,520
religious movement it was about the

411
00:17:01,040 --> 00:16:59,220
money man and he says over and over get

412
00:17:02,990 --> 00:17:01,050
the money it's about the money

413
00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:03,000
if you forget it's about the money refer

414
00:17:09,199 --> 00:17:06,510
to rule 1 it's about money and so here's

415
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:09,209
here's how here's how dr. Hugh Irvin

416
00:17:13,970 --> 00:17:10,890
spins that I think it's really important

417
00:17:16,100 --> 00:17:13,980
the way you did it you say okay yeah

418
00:17:18,980 --> 00:17:16,110
that looks like a cult

419
00:17:21,050 --> 00:17:18,990
to a lot of us because that's what we're

420
00:17:22,670 --> 00:17:21,060
conditioned to think that's the sure

421
00:17:25,069 --> 00:17:22,680
sign of a cult they're just out of money

422
00:17:27,380 --> 00:17:25,079
he says but you know this is really

423
00:17:30,650 --> 00:17:27,390
consistent with this guy's theology

424
00:17:32,390 --> 00:17:30,660
throughout so can we really separate the

425
00:17:33,830 --> 00:17:32,400
two and so if I'm getting that right

426
00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:33,840
maybe you get where I'm going - maybe

427
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:36,650
you want to expound on where this ya

428
00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:38,970
know you're right and that's one of the

429
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:40,650
main reasons that there's been so much

430
00:17:42,660 --> 00:17:42,240
criticism of Scientology and I the main

431
00:17:44,670 --> 00:17:42,670
reasons

432
00:17:48,810 --> 00:17:44,680
been called a cult of greed as Time

433
00:17:51,300 --> 00:17:48,820
magazine put it as that making money is

434
00:17:53,580 --> 00:17:51,310
explicitly stated by l ron Hubbard as

435
00:17:55,380 --> 00:17:53,590
one of the goals and the auditing

436
00:17:56,490 --> 00:17:55,390
becomes quite expensive especially when

437
00:17:59,190 --> 00:17:56,500
you get into the upper more esoteric

438
00:18:01,050 --> 00:17:59,200
levels so that's definitely their eye

439
00:18:03,870 --> 00:18:01,060
but I would say a couple things

440
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:03,880
there's nowhere as far as I know in the

441
00:18:08,970 --> 00:18:05,770
Constitution or any US law that says

442
00:18:11,220 --> 00:18:08,980
religions can't also bring in a lot of

443
00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:11,230
revenue I mean look at any televangelist

444
00:18:15,780 --> 00:18:13,510
look at Joel Osteen or Pat Robertson

445
00:18:18,390 --> 00:18:15,790
they actually make Scientology look like

446
00:18:20,190 --> 00:18:18,400
chicken feed by comparison so you can

447
00:18:21,780 --> 00:18:20,200
think of lots of examples of prominent

448
00:18:23,070 --> 00:18:21,790
religious figures who also bring

449
00:18:24,900 --> 00:18:23,080
intruments not a revenue there's a guy

450
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:24,910
here in Columbus rod parsley world

451
00:18:31,470 --> 00:18:27,610
Harvest Church also brings in tons of

452
00:18:35,340 --> 00:18:31,480
money every Sunday so I think we assume

453
00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:35,350
that religions can't make money but

454
00:18:41,250 --> 00:18:38,170
there's no actual reason that's

455
00:18:44,430 --> 00:18:41,260
necessarily the case I mean to be tax

456
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:44,440
exempt they have to be not-for-profit

457
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:46,210
but that doesn't mean they can't ask for

458
00:18:50,420 --> 00:18:48,610
donations or bring in revenue and all

459
00:18:52,770 --> 00:18:50,430
sorts of other ways so it may be

460
00:18:55,140 --> 00:18:52,780
distasteful to most of us including

461
00:18:57,330 --> 00:18:55,150
myself but I'm not sure that inherently

462
00:18:59,010 --> 00:18:57,340
disqualifies something from being called

463
00:19:01,740 --> 00:18:59,020
their religion does that make sense oh

464
00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:01,750
it totally makes sense and again it

465
00:19:06,540 --> 00:19:04,810
squares up the the problem that you're

466
00:19:08,130 --> 00:19:06,550
kind of bringing into focus and I don't

467
00:19:10,020 --> 00:19:08,140
want to make it sound like you're an

468
00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:10,030
apologist for Scientology because you're

469
00:19:15,270 --> 00:19:12,310
clearly not and you try and present a

470
00:19:17,310 --> 00:19:15,280
very balanced picture you have in there

471
00:19:20,130 --> 00:19:17,320
the account of Gerald Armstrong maybe

472
00:19:23,340 --> 00:19:20,140
you want to talk about somebody who you

473
00:19:26,700 --> 00:19:23,350
know can can speak to the criminality of

474
00:19:28,350 --> 00:19:26,710
right go ahead well yeah I mean that's

475
00:19:31,050 --> 00:19:28,360
the important point but we should

476
00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:31,060
probably highlight is that my whole

477
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:33,010
approach in that book and and everything

478
00:19:38,250 --> 00:19:35,050
I've written is to try to maintain a

479
00:19:41,250 --> 00:19:38,260
balance between an attitude of respect

480
00:19:44,310 --> 00:19:41,260
and attitude of critical interrogation

481
00:19:45,930 --> 00:19:44,320
so by respect I mean that we should try

482
00:19:47,460 --> 00:19:45,940
to understand these movements as well we

483
00:19:49,380 --> 00:19:47,470
can try to understand why anyone would

484
00:19:51,510 --> 00:19:49,390
want to become a Scientologist in the

485
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:51,520
first place try to understand the belief

486
00:19:56,310 --> 00:19:54,210
system and the practices and as

487
00:19:58,259 --> 00:19:56,320
sympathetically as possible

488
00:20:00,419 --> 00:19:58,269
at the same time we should also be ready

489
00:20:03,060 --> 00:20:00,429
to ask really serious critical questions

490
00:20:05,460 --> 00:20:03,070
like where does where does this money go

491
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:05,470
for example is it really a nonprofit

492
00:20:09,629 --> 00:20:07,210
organization or does it begin to look

493
00:20:12,779 --> 00:20:09,639
more like a for-profit business so yeah

494
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:12,789
I think I you're upset right I'm not an

495
00:20:17,850 --> 00:20:15,130
apologist but I'm also not a Scientology

496
00:20:19,620 --> 00:20:17,860
basher either I want to strike a balance

497
00:20:21,810 --> 00:20:19,630
it allows us to understand the movement

498
00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:21,820
and its history and its belief system

499
00:20:29,039 --> 00:20:24,690
and practices but it also look hard at

500
00:20:31,919 --> 00:20:29,049
it's very problematic history - okay

501
00:20:34,110 --> 00:20:31,929
then let's talk about the other book I

502
00:20:37,169 --> 00:20:34,120
wanted to highlight in this interview

503
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:37,179
and it's the book on Osho great stuff

504
00:20:41,249 --> 00:20:39,610
another really interesting book it's a

505
00:20:45,299 --> 00:20:41,259
couple years old at this point

506
00:20:46,830 --> 00:20:45,309
written in 2015 the title is Zorba the

507
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:46,840
Buddha which is going to be an

508
00:20:51,299 --> 00:20:49,090
interesting title right there to talk

509
00:20:53,899 --> 00:20:51,309
about and the subtitle is sex

510
00:20:58,499 --> 00:20:53,909
spirituality and capitalism in the

511
00:21:01,110 --> 00:20:58,509
global Osho movement I'm not gonna read

512
00:21:03,389 --> 00:21:01,120
Jeff's excellent blurb but trust me this

513
00:21:05,549 --> 00:21:03,399
is another book that was extremely well

514
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:05,559
received you're good at this stuff

515
00:21:10,970 --> 00:21:08,110
aren't you quite the writer well I've

516
00:21:13,740 --> 00:21:10,980
got Jeff Crapo as my number one fan here

517
00:21:16,820 --> 00:21:13,750
yeah I did full I did some full - blurbs

518
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:16,830
there's a lot other really good blue

519
00:21:24,869 --> 00:21:21,730
maybe again just a quick sketch of what

520
00:21:27,509 --> 00:21:24,879
this book is about so really the book

521
00:21:29,669 --> 00:21:27,519
traces the development of one movement

522
00:21:32,159 --> 00:21:29,679
that centers around the controversial

523
00:21:34,350 --> 00:21:32,169
Indian guru who is known in his youth as

524
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:34,360
Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh and his later

525
00:21:39,269 --> 00:21:37,330
years as Osho he starts out in India

526
00:21:42,749 --> 00:21:39,279
gathers the following in the 1960s and

527
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:42,759
70s becomes really popular among Western

528
00:21:47,909 --> 00:21:45,850
young people in the 60s and 70s in India

529
00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:47,919
and then comes to United States in the

530
00:21:53,970 --> 00:21:51,250
1980s and establishes a large and

531
00:21:56,970 --> 00:21:53,980
briefly very successful utopian

532
00:22:02,490 --> 00:21:56,980
community center Oregon which quickly

533
00:22:04,889 --> 00:22:02,500
also went off the rails and ended in the

534
00:22:07,379 --> 00:22:04,899
worst bioterror attack on US soil and

535
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:07,389
led to many people being arrested and

536
00:22:11,910 --> 00:22:09,970
the Guru being deported this was

537
00:22:13,740 --> 00:22:11,920
focus of the Netflix series wild wild

538
00:22:15,330 --> 00:22:13,750
country if people had seen that what did

539
00:22:19,500 --> 00:22:15,340
you how did you think of that of that

540
00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:19,510
dock how how accurate any major bones to

541
00:22:24,270 --> 00:22:22,510
pick with those folks I thought in many

542
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:24,280
ways it was really well done they had

543
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:26,410
excellent vintage footage a lot of stuff

544
00:22:31,380 --> 00:22:28,930
I hadn't seen before so just in terms of

545
00:22:32,580 --> 00:22:31,390
like an archival document it was really

546
00:22:34,050 --> 00:22:32,590
valuable to have all that stuff and they

547
00:22:37,380 --> 00:22:34,060
had good interviews with people who were

548
00:22:38,910 --> 00:22:37,390
there my criticism is really that it

549
00:22:41,610 --> 00:22:38,920
didn't do a very good job of explaining

550
00:22:43,860 --> 00:22:41,620
the prehistory of the movement before it

551
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:43,870
came to Oregon and then it also didn't

552
00:22:47,790 --> 00:22:44,970
really do a very good job of explaining

553
00:22:50,550 --> 00:22:47,800
the belief system behind it it wasn't

554
00:22:52,170 --> 00:22:50,560
clear I think why anyone would join this

555
00:22:54,090 --> 00:22:52,180
group it seems like it's just this

556
00:22:55,710 --> 00:22:54,100
oddball thing that popped up in the

557
00:22:57,870 --> 00:22:55,720
middle of Oregon and the Reagan era

558
00:22:59,790 --> 00:22:57,880
without explaining that philosophy

559
00:23:02,280 --> 00:22:59,800
behind it that led so many people to be

560
00:23:04,770 --> 00:23:02,290
attracted to this guy great point so

561
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:04,780
touch on that for a minute from the

562
00:23:09,470 --> 00:23:06,730
beginning from your book I'm pulling

563
00:23:12,870 --> 00:23:09,480
this stuff radical a kind of classed

564
00:23:14,850 --> 00:23:12,880
dangerous yeah and eclectic very

565
00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:14,860
eclectic which is something that is a

566
00:23:20,730 --> 00:23:18,730
true innovation in yes little religion

567
00:23:24,270 --> 00:23:20,740
cult whatever you want to call it speak

568
00:23:26,250 --> 00:23:24,280
to that because yeah so so Osho Okan

569
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:26,260
Osho Rajneesh because he's known by both

570
00:23:31,890 --> 00:23:29,170
names social and Russians so he was an

571
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:31,900
explicitly iconoclastic sort of guru

572
00:23:37,380 --> 00:23:33,610
unlike really any other guru that had

573
00:23:41,780 --> 00:23:37,390
come along before him he loved to attack

574
00:23:44,430 --> 00:23:41,790
and make fun of iconic figures so he

575
00:23:47,940 --> 00:23:44,440
made fun of Mahatma Gandhi and mother

576
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:47,950
Teresa and was really pitching what he

577
00:23:52,830 --> 00:23:49,810
called the religion list religion that

578
00:23:54,210 --> 00:23:52,840
would do away with all the dogma and

579
00:23:57,420 --> 00:23:54,220
institutional trappings of mainstream

580
00:23:59,760 --> 00:23:57,430
religions and really be a spirituality

581
00:24:01,890 --> 00:23:59,770
that was all about liberating the

582
00:24:03,810 --> 00:24:01,900
divinity of each individual so from

583
00:24:06,060 --> 00:24:03,820
Rajesh's perspective we're all

584
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:06,070
inherently already Buddha's were already

585
00:24:11,850 --> 00:24:09,610
enlightened but we're covered over by so

586
00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:11,860
many layers of socialization from

587
00:24:16,650 --> 00:24:13,570
schools and politics and those

588
00:24:17,780 --> 00:24:16,660
institutions that we don't realize our

589
00:24:20,580 --> 00:24:17,790
true divinity were sort of like

590
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:20,590
sleepwalkers and so his techniques were

591
00:24:26,340 --> 00:24:23,410
often deliberately

592
00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:26,350
radical kind of shock techniques he used

593
00:24:30,390 --> 00:24:28,510
very active and dynamic forms of

594
00:24:32,310 --> 00:24:30,400
meditation that we can talk about that

595
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:32,320
were really intended to sort of jolt us

596
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:34,090
into awakening or sort of sudden

597
00:24:39,450 --> 00:24:37,330
realization of our own divinity and at

598
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:39,460
some point he's court incorporating in

599
00:24:47,820 --> 00:24:43,450
some very Western kind of esslyn kind of

600
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:47,830
Gestalt dish and post psychoanalytic

601
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:51,010
kind I mean so he's again he's eclectic

602
00:24:55,980 --> 00:24:53,170
where is that coming from and is it just

603
00:24:57,450 --> 00:24:55,990
to further I don't know how do you how

604
00:25:00,450 --> 00:24:57,460
do you sort that out is it to further

605
00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:00,460
develop people or to further you know

606
00:25:04,650 --> 00:25:02,710
control them or well I mean well he was

607
00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:04,660
trained in philosophy so he was already

608
00:25:08,460 --> 00:25:07,210
widely read in Western philosophy and he

609
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:08,470
knew the works of Freud and

610
00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:10,570
post-freudian it's like bill helm Reich

611
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:13,450
really well and then in the 60s and 70s

612
00:25:18,630 --> 00:25:15,730
as he's starting to attract more and

613
00:25:20,370 --> 00:25:18,640
more Westerners he starts bringing in

614
00:25:22,710 --> 00:25:20,380
people who had been trained in places

615
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:22,720
like eskalene suit in California and so

616
00:25:29,430 --> 00:25:25,450
they start bringing in like encounter

617
00:25:32,490 --> 00:25:29,440
groups and asked and reichian therapy

618
00:25:35,060 --> 00:25:32,500
and so he begins really this very

619
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:35,070
original blend of more traditional

620
00:25:41,670 --> 00:25:37,450
Indian style techniques drawn from

621
00:25:43,470 --> 00:25:41,680
Buddhism Hinduism also draws on Taoism

622
00:25:46,070 --> 00:25:43,480
in Chinese traditions but then he blends

623
00:25:48,330 --> 00:25:46,080
these with post Freudian psychoanalysis

624
00:25:50,190 --> 00:25:48,340
with a lot of the New Age ideas that

625
00:25:53,670 --> 00:25:50,200
were spread in California in the 60s and

626
00:25:56,510 --> 00:25:53,680
70s and he begins to forge an explicitly

627
00:25:59,000 --> 00:25:56,520
kind of global spirituality that would

628
00:26:02,340 --> 00:25:59,010
transcend the limits of traditional

629
00:26:03,990 --> 00:26:02,350
Eastern or Western practices and I think

630
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:04,000
this was one of the reasons the movement

631
00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:05,890
took off so well is because it came

632
00:26:09,170 --> 00:26:07,930
along at just the right time and place

633
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:09,180
when he had all these young people

634
00:26:16,220 --> 00:26:11,290
flocking to India you know in the wake

635
00:26:19,950 --> 00:26:16,230
of the Beatles going to India 1960s and

636
00:26:23,370 --> 00:26:19,960
more and more stuff coming from India to

637
00:26:25,950 --> 00:26:23,380
the US so it was just the cusp of a lot

638
00:26:28,950 --> 00:26:25,960
of this global circulation between India

639
00:26:33,150 --> 00:26:28,960
in the US and he tapped right into that

640
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:33,160
in a in a very original way and he were

641
00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:36,850
you going explain to people the Zorba

642
00:26:42,630 --> 00:26:40,390
the Buddha thing so Zorba the Buddha was

643
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:42,640
his phrase and it refers to the

644
00:26:47,250 --> 00:26:45,490
enlightened individual the perfect fully

645
00:26:49,530 --> 00:26:47,260
realized human being who would combine

646
00:26:51,420 --> 00:26:49,540
the spirituality of the Buddha with the

647
00:26:53,610 --> 00:26:51,430
materialism and sensuality of Zorba the

648
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:53,620
Greek and so his whole explain for

649
00:26:57,900 --> 00:26:55,330
people who don't remember desorb of the

650
00:27:01,050 --> 00:26:57,910
Greek so it's a novel that was then made

651
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:01,060
into a film and Zorba sort of embodiment

652
00:27:07,470 --> 00:27:04,450
the individual who was full of lust for

653
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:07,480
life and enjoys the pleasures of this

654
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:09,730
world right and so that's the Rajesh's

655
00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:11,650
ideal is a spiritually realized person

656
00:27:17,970 --> 00:27:15,910
isn't just you know a skinny holy man

657
00:27:20,550 --> 00:27:17,980
meditating up in the mountains but

658
00:27:22,650 --> 00:27:20,560
rather someone who combines spirituality

659
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:22,660
with a full embrace of life and all its

660
00:27:29,850 --> 00:27:25,330
pleasures so dancing is a big part of

661
00:27:31,620 --> 00:27:29,860
their practice sexuality is a big part

662
00:27:33,840 --> 00:27:31,630
of their practice so you don't need to

663
00:27:36,300 --> 00:27:33,850
deny the body and the senses in order to

664
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:36,310
have a spiritual life in fact the true

665
00:27:40,230 --> 00:27:38,410
realized person would would combine the

666
00:27:42,330 --> 00:27:40,240
materialism absorber with the

667
00:27:43,710 --> 00:27:42,340
spirituality of the Buddha and what do

668
00:27:45,540 --> 00:27:43,720
you think about that you're kind of

669
00:27:47,580 --> 00:27:45,550
interested in the Tantra and the neo

670
00:27:48,990 --> 00:27:47,590
Tantra stuff which is kind of a

671
00:27:51,180 --> 00:27:49,000
fascinating thing we could get into

672
00:27:53,310 --> 00:27:51,190
because you're really suggesting and you

673
00:27:55,620 --> 00:27:53,320
have some ayah from what I understand

674
00:28:00,090 --> 00:27:55,630
some ethnographic work going on to kind

675
00:28:02,910 --> 00:28:00,100
of tease out how we understand Tantra to

676
00:28:05,820 --> 00:28:02,920
be basically what oshio is talking about

677
00:28:07,710 --> 00:28:05,830
but maybe the roots don't go back there

678
00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:07,720
or but again I don't want to bury the

679
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:09,370
first question what do you think about

680
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:12,970
his spin on that that's really good

681
00:28:18,570 --> 00:28:15,970
questions um let's see I have two

682
00:28:22,290 --> 00:28:18,580
answers that one sort of in a historical

683
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:22,300
sense I think it was brilliant insofar

684
00:28:27,390 --> 00:28:24,490
as it came along at just the right time

685
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:27,400
in place again in the wake of the sexual

686
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:31,170
revolution and a counterculture and it

687
00:28:36,770 --> 00:28:33,850
catered brilliantly to a generation of

688
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:36,780
young people who wanted to pursue

689
00:28:42,030 --> 00:28:39,490
liberated ideas of sexuality but also

690
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:42,040
wanted a spiritual life and this this

691
00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:43,450
movement was perfect for that

692
00:28:50,730 --> 00:28:47,290
so historically I think it worked really

693
00:28:53,669 --> 00:28:50,740
well with that kind of moment in time

694
00:28:56,490 --> 00:28:53,679
from a scholarly perspective what he did

695
00:28:58,590 --> 00:28:56,500
was also quite a change in our

696
00:29:00,750 --> 00:28:58,600
understanding of Tantra because

697
00:29:03,389 --> 00:29:00,760
historically Tantra does use the body

698
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:03,399
and it does use the senses in spiritual

699
00:29:08,639 --> 00:29:05,770
practice and in some cases there are

700
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:08,649
sexual practices too although they're

701
00:29:13,529 --> 00:29:12,130
much more limited than what we what we

702
00:29:14,399 --> 00:29:13,539
see on the shelves of like Barnes &

703
00:29:16,529 --> 00:29:14,409
Noble and like the Complete Idiot's

704
00:29:18,899 --> 00:29:16,539
Guide of the kontrick six and and

705
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:18,909
Rajneesh was really the key figure and

706
00:29:25,350 --> 00:29:21,010
redefining Tantra to be mostly about sex

707
00:29:27,990 --> 00:29:25,360
right so previously sex was a limited

708
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:28,000
small part of the Contra practice but

709
00:29:32,970 --> 00:29:30,130
from the 60s onward it's mostly

710
00:29:35,340 --> 00:29:32,980
redefined entirely in terms of sex I

711
00:29:37,590 --> 00:29:35,350
thought that cosmopolitan did a an issue

712
00:29:41,190 --> 00:29:37,600
on Tantra and they called it

713
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:41,200
nuki Nirvana right so via Terry and I

714
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:43,090
think Osho Rajneesh is probably the most

715
00:29:48,539 --> 00:29:44,730
important figure in that transformation

716
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:48,549
yeah but but also they're kind of

717
00:29:55,590 --> 00:29:51,970
completely spinning it I mean isn't the

718
00:29:59,730 --> 00:29:55,600
original core understanding of contra is

719
00:30:01,710 --> 00:29:59,740
a means to transcend your barriers so if

720
00:30:04,529 --> 00:30:01,720
that's your barrier is this attachment

721
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:04,539
to these material things including your

722
00:30:09,180 --> 00:30:07,090
sexuality then let's find a way to

723
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:09,190
transcend that and that seems out the

724
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:11,610
door here that's like not really

725
00:30:17,250 --> 00:30:13,450
anything to worry about the

726
00:30:20,789 --> 00:30:17,260
transcendence let's get it off yeah I

727
00:30:22,529 --> 00:30:20,799
mean I don't want to caricature Rajesh's

728
00:30:25,830 --> 00:30:22,539
understanding of Tantra but I do think

729
00:30:29,029 --> 00:30:25,840
he really shifted the emphasis from what

730
00:30:32,490 --> 00:30:29,039
was originally a fairly esoteric path

731
00:30:33,810 --> 00:30:32,500
aimed at awakening and harnessing the

732
00:30:35,430 --> 00:30:33,820
divine energy that flows through the

733
00:30:38,610 --> 00:30:35,440
cosmos and the body that's kind of how I

734
00:30:40,409 --> 00:30:38,620
would define Tantra to understanding

735
00:30:43,529 --> 00:30:40,419
Tantra largely in terms of sex and also

736
00:30:45,919 --> 00:30:43,539
largely in terms of sexuality understood

737
00:30:48,090 --> 00:30:45,929
through the lens of post-freudian

738
00:30:49,860 --> 00:30:48,100
therapists like Bill Hemmer Icke in

739
00:30:53,519 --> 00:30:49,870
particular of whom he was a great

740
00:30:55,799 --> 00:30:53,529
admirer so you do an awesome job in this

741
00:30:59,100 --> 00:30:55,809
book again of trying to sort this stuff

742
00:31:01,680 --> 00:30:59,110
out and people will come to appreciate

743
00:31:03,060 --> 00:31:01,690
that when they read the book but maybe

744
00:31:04,169 --> 00:31:03,070
you want to just because I think this is

745
00:31:07,820 --> 00:31:04,179
kind of an interest

746
00:31:11,159 --> 00:31:07,830
point you know how you dealt with

747
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:11,169
followers versus ex followers the

748
00:31:17,159 --> 00:31:14,799
stories and accounts it is interesting

749
00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:17,169
because again from the way this stuff's

750
00:31:21,869 --> 00:31:19,289
it's in our culture and doesn't sit well

751
00:31:23,639 --> 00:31:21,879
you know as a scholar how do you how do

752
00:31:24,930 --> 00:31:23,649
you deal with some of that stuff yeah

753
00:31:26,609 --> 00:31:24,940
that's a good question that's a question

754
00:31:29,460 --> 00:31:26,619
I wrestled with in both the Scientology

755
00:31:31,350 --> 00:31:29,470
book and this one how do you balance

756
00:31:33,659 --> 00:31:31,360
accounts between current members of a

757
00:31:35,700 --> 00:31:33,669
movement versus ex members and for a

758
00:31:38,940 --> 00:31:35,710
long time people who worked on new

759
00:31:41,639 --> 00:31:38,950
religions didn't want to listen to the

760
00:31:43,799 --> 00:31:41,649
accounts of ex members because they were

761
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:43,809
seen to be too biased and had too much

762
00:31:48,989 --> 00:31:45,450
of an agenda or axe to grind to be

763
00:31:50,609 --> 00:31:48,999
credible informants know they're gonna

764
00:31:53,220 --> 00:31:50,619
be that's going to be really surprising

765
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:53,230
to people again cuz when people come

766
00:31:57,359 --> 00:31:55,450
into the religious studies they kind of

767
00:31:59,129 --> 00:31:57,369
I don't know they think a whole bunch of

768
00:32:01,230 --> 00:31:59,139
things that turn out not to be true but

769
00:32:04,019 --> 00:32:01,240
that right there is is kind of startling

770
00:32:06,060 --> 00:32:04,029
because from a kind of public media

771
00:32:07,919 --> 00:32:06,070
standpoint it's almost reversed right we

772
00:32:10,259 --> 00:32:07,929
would hear about are the people who feel

773
00:32:12,299 --> 00:32:10,269
that they're most damaged and injured by

774
00:32:14,369 --> 00:32:12,309
these cults and bring them forward let

775
00:32:16,950 --> 00:32:14,379
them have their time you're saying that

776
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:16,960
it's almost the reverse yeah and the

777
00:32:21,090 --> 00:32:19,570
reason the one reason for that is many

778
00:32:24,450 --> 00:32:21,100
scholars for a long time I'd say up

779
00:32:26,639 --> 00:32:24,460
until the 90s maybe we're really working

780
00:32:28,259 --> 00:32:26,649
very hard to undo the media media

781
00:32:31,259 --> 00:32:28,269
stereotypes or groups like Scientology

782
00:32:32,700 --> 00:32:31,269
all right so the media stereotype is

783
00:32:36,149 --> 00:32:32,710
that these are brainwashing dangerous

784
00:32:37,409 --> 00:32:36,159
cults and and therefore we want to

785
00:32:39,330 --> 00:32:37,419
listen to all the ex members who are

786
00:32:41,039 --> 00:32:39,340
bashing them and scholars kind of went

787
00:32:42,989 --> 00:32:41,049
the other direction by saying no no no

788
00:32:45,119 --> 00:32:42,999
need to take them seriously as religious

789
00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:45,129
movements and therefore we should pay

790
00:32:49,379 --> 00:32:47,049
most attention to what what

791
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:49,389
spokespersons who are existing members

792
00:32:53,999 --> 00:32:52,330
of the church say and my perspective is

793
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:54,009
really need to gather as much

794
00:32:58,109 --> 00:32:55,690
information as possible and so you need

795
00:33:00,899 --> 00:32:58,119
to listen to everybody in order to get a

796
00:33:03,359 --> 00:33:00,909
full picture of any group so so I in

797
00:33:05,570 --> 00:33:03,369
both books I talked to current members

798
00:33:08,159 --> 00:33:05,580
and I talked to ex members and I try to

799
00:33:11,940 --> 00:33:08,169
balance both perspectives as well as

800
00:33:15,690 --> 00:33:11,950
possible and you do an awesome job of

801
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:15,700
that and the books are highly

802
00:33:19,350 --> 00:33:17,410
recommended by everyone who's

803
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:19,360
Retta man they're on these bestseller

804
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:22,450
lists inside of Amazon and that really

805
00:33:26,670 --> 00:33:24,250
need to check them out but one extra

806
00:33:29,310 --> 00:33:26,680
point on that is that it also means that

807
00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:29,320
you piss off people on both sides so in

808
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:32,110
both cases I mean both books have

809
00:33:36,180 --> 00:33:33,490
largely been well-received but in both

810
00:33:39,030 --> 00:33:36,190
cases I've also been criticized by some

811
00:33:41,070 --> 00:33:39,040
for being too nice to Scientology and

812
00:33:42,420 --> 00:33:41,080
the Osho movement and I've been

813
00:33:44,910 --> 00:33:42,430
criticized by others for being too

814
00:33:46,170 --> 00:33:44,920
critical so you if you try to strike it

815
00:33:49,350 --> 00:33:46,180
out so you can't win is kind of what I'm

816
00:33:53,430 --> 00:33:49,360
saying you can't win anyway and you

817
00:33:56,210 --> 00:33:53,440
can't win on sceptic oh okay because I'm

818
00:33:59,400 --> 00:33:56,220
gonna pull you into some other questions

819
00:34:01,320 --> 00:33:59,410
because you are at this kind of friction

820
00:34:04,980 --> 00:34:01,330
point this junction point and you're

821
00:34:07,410 --> 00:34:04,990
kind of pushing some some buttons as

822
00:34:10,140 --> 00:34:07,420
term in terms of how these religions

823
00:34:12,450 --> 00:34:10,150
slash cults interface with culture

824
00:34:15,240 --> 00:34:12,460
interface with spirituality interface

825
00:34:16,830 --> 00:34:15,250
with religion so this is the kind of

826
00:34:19,980 --> 00:34:16,840
stuff I'm really interested in and I've

827
00:34:22,860 --> 00:34:19,990
interviewed so many people about these

828
00:34:25,590 --> 00:34:22,870
issues of including people in academia

829
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:25,600
who do anthropology work and para

830
00:34:30,300 --> 00:34:28,450
anthropology work with you know shamanic

831
00:34:33,450 --> 00:34:30,310
people and how does that fit in but

832
00:34:35,970 --> 00:34:33,460
here's let me start with this and this

833
00:34:38,340 --> 00:34:35,980
would be kind of fun take you outside of

834
00:34:39,750 --> 00:34:38,350
your comfort zone in terms of stuff that

835
00:34:44,220 --> 00:34:39,760
you probably talked about before in

836
00:34:47,720 --> 00:34:44,230
these books but let me talk about this

837
00:34:50,850 --> 00:34:47,730
excellent clip that I got from an

838
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:50,860
interview you did with you haven't done

839
00:34:55,260 --> 00:34:53,050
a lot of podcast interviews there need

840
00:34:57,030 --> 00:34:55,270
to be more of them out there but this is

841
00:35:00,180 --> 00:34:57,040
from an interview you did a few years

842
00:35:02,790 --> 00:35:00,190
back on a show called the edge and this

843
00:35:04,620 --> 00:35:02,800
is just fascinating stuff let me play

844
00:35:06,630 --> 00:35:04,630
this for people and then we'll talk

845
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:06,640
about it this is from this about your

846
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:09,850
book the Church of Scientology and about

847
00:35:14,940 --> 00:35:12,730
l ron Hubbard and Jack Parsons and

848
00:35:17,430 --> 00:35:14,950
Aleister Crowley I think a lot of people

849
00:35:20,700 --> 00:35:17,440
know this history but not as well as you

850
00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:20,710
do because there's no doubt really that

851
00:35:25,080 --> 00:35:22,510
Hubbard was involved in some kind of

852
00:35:26,820 --> 00:35:25,090
occult practices in the late 1940s the

853
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:26,830
Church of Scientology even admits that

854
00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:29,650
then after world war ii after he gets

855
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:30,310
out of the Navy

856
00:35:34,770 --> 00:35:32,890
he goes to Pasadena California and

857
00:35:38,010 --> 00:35:34,780
encounters an individual named John

858
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:38,020
Whiteside or Jack Parsons Parsons was a

859
00:35:43,620 --> 00:35:40,570
rocket scientist quite a prominent one

860
00:35:46,710 --> 00:35:43,630
who was also extremely involved in magic

861
00:35:48,990 --> 00:35:46,720
and occultism and was part of a group

862
00:35:51,150 --> 00:35:49,000
called the Ordo Templi Orientis whose

863
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:51,160
most famous member was Aleister Crowley

864
00:35:55,410 --> 00:35:52,570
who was probably the most important

865
00:35:58,050 --> 00:35:55,420
occultist of the 20th century Hubbard

866
00:35:59,880 --> 00:35:58,060
and Parsons became friends and began to

867
00:36:01,650 --> 00:35:59,890
engage in a series of rituals the most

868
00:36:04,140 --> 00:36:01,660
important was called the babylon working

869
00:36:06,210 --> 00:36:04,150
which was a right based on Crowley's

870
00:36:09,060 --> 00:36:06,220
work that was intended to help identify

871
00:36:11,550 --> 00:36:09,070
a female partner who would serve as the

872
00:36:14,340 --> 00:36:11,560
[\h__\h] of Babylon and then to a series of

873
00:36:16,620 --> 00:36:14,350
sex magical operations they would

874
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:16,630
conceive a being who would become

875
00:36:21,270 --> 00:36:19,210
effectively the Antichrist they would

876
00:36:24,450 --> 00:36:21,280
then control that being and unleash

877
00:36:27,810 --> 00:36:24,460
tremendous power first thing is you're

878
00:36:30,330 --> 00:36:27,820
pretty damn calm about all that most

879
00:36:32,820 --> 00:36:30,340
people would be shocked and then they'd

880
00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:32,830
immediately want to jump to the well is

881
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:36,310
this true kind of standpoint and you

882
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:38,650
know how did you how do you kind of

883
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:42,490
process that oh well you know I've been

884
00:36:46,590 --> 00:36:44,490
teaching for twenty years and

885
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:46,600
researching for longer than that and

886
00:36:51,150 --> 00:36:48,850
I've seen a lot of weird stuff and so

887
00:36:54,270 --> 00:36:51,160
very little phases me at this point and

888
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:54,280
so and my attitude and all the work I do

889
00:37:00,990 --> 00:36:56,890
is kind of what I call radical

890
00:37:03,210 --> 00:37:01,000
agnosticism so I try to just be as

891
00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:03,220
open-minded about anything that I look

892
00:37:08,070 --> 00:37:05,710
at and try to understand it without

893
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:08,080
immediately passing judgment on it no

894
00:37:12,720 --> 00:37:10,330
matter how bizarre it might seem at

895
00:37:16,770 --> 00:37:12,730
first glance the part that concerns me

896
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:16,780
is we have reason to believe that this

897
00:37:23,190 --> 00:37:20,170
stuff really did happen and like the

898
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:23,200
Jack Parsons and Aleister Crowley thing

899
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:26,170
has direct connections to the MKULTRA

900
00:37:31,740 --> 00:37:29,890
program in the 50s right it has direct

901
00:37:33,570 --> 00:37:31,750
connections to the secret spying for

902
00:37:35,790 --> 00:37:33,580
Iran but now there's tens of thousands

903
00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:35,800
of documents released and there's this

904
00:37:40,050 --> 00:37:37,450
guy have up on the screen Sidney

905
00:37:43,259 --> 00:37:40,060
Gottlieb who a lot of people refer to as

906
00:37:47,249 --> 00:37:43,269
the US is Jose

907
00:37:49,679 --> 00:37:47,259
from angle a so it's it's not so much

908
00:37:51,149 --> 00:37:49,689
that I would judge these practices but I

909
00:37:53,729 --> 00:37:51,159
would want to drive a stake in the

910
00:37:57,029 --> 00:37:53,739
ground and say the best we can know

911
00:37:59,099 --> 00:37:57,039
there is a reality to this extended

912
00:38:00,989 --> 00:37:59,109
consciousness realm that they're trying

913
00:38:02,939 --> 00:38:00,999
to get to and the reason I say there's a

914
00:38:04,889 --> 00:38:02,949
reality to it because it looks like our

915
00:38:07,769 --> 00:38:04,899
government was trying to do the same

916
00:38:10,199 --> 00:38:07,779
thing yeah m'kay often men stare at

917
00:38:13,489 --> 00:38:10,209
goats I mean all this stuff is going on

918
00:38:17,479 --> 00:38:13,499
and so I'm just not sure that we can

919
00:38:19,949 --> 00:38:17,489
bracket that back into oh you know those

920
00:38:22,919 --> 00:38:19,959
Scientologists they were kind of playing

921
00:38:25,289 --> 00:38:22,929
off of the Cold War jitters they will

922
00:38:28,679 --> 00:38:25,299
have I mean there seems to be a reality

923
00:38:33,209 --> 00:38:28,689
to this yeah I'm definitely not saying

924
00:38:34,829 --> 00:38:33,219
that it's merely an odd byproduct of you

925
00:38:37,169 --> 00:38:34,839
know the odd stuff that was happening

926
00:38:39,599 --> 00:38:37,179
and during the Cold War and the only

927
00:38:41,669 --> 00:38:39,609
reason that movements like these gained

928
00:38:43,679 --> 00:38:41,679
any traction is because people do take

929
00:38:46,559 --> 00:38:43,689
them very seriously and do believe

930
00:38:49,620 --> 00:38:46,569
there's they're there right and in the

931
00:38:53,759 --> 00:38:49,630
but I guess I would say that I can't

932
00:38:55,409 --> 00:38:53,769
know as a historian a religion whether

933
00:38:56,909 --> 00:38:55,419
there's a reality with what they're

934
00:38:58,739 --> 00:38:56,919
talking about but I can say that they

935
00:39:00,749 --> 00:38:58,749
certainly believed there was and took it

936
00:39:03,779 --> 00:39:00,759
very seriously and so that alone I think

937
00:39:05,509 --> 00:39:03,789
is worthy of study whether whether the

938
00:39:08,759 --> 00:39:05,519
psychic research they were doing was

939
00:39:10,259 --> 00:39:08,769
real or not I can't say but I can't say

940
00:39:11,370 --> 00:39:10,269
that they certainly took it very

941
00:39:14,669 --> 00:39:11,380
seriously and your hundred-percent right

942
00:39:16,019 --> 00:39:14,679
the US government did too in the chapter

943
00:39:17,249 --> 00:39:16,029
on the Cold War in the Scientology book

944
00:39:18,599 --> 00:39:17,259
I talked about the research that was

945
00:39:22,739 --> 00:39:18,609
going on but the Stanford Research

946
00:39:25,139 --> 00:39:22,749
Institute in the early 1970s there were

947
00:39:27,269 --> 00:39:25,149
least three Scientologists were involved

948
00:39:28,889 --> 00:39:27,279
in that they were doing this remote

949
00:39:33,089 --> 00:39:28,899
viewing research for they're trying to

950
00:39:34,829 --> 00:39:33,099
spy on Russia remotely so and I've

951
00:39:37,889 --> 00:39:34,839
interviewed several of those folks and

952
00:39:40,319 --> 00:39:37,899
they they genuinely believed that they

953
00:39:42,899 --> 00:39:40,329
were doing remote viewing and that this

954
00:39:45,779 --> 00:39:42,909
was a real thing whether it was real I

955
00:39:47,819 --> 00:39:45,789
don't know but I mean that I guess is

956
00:39:50,009 --> 00:39:47,829
the point first off you're right Pat

957
00:39:52,139 --> 00:39:50,019
price is a Scientologist

958
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:52,149
Russell tarkir helped put off one or

959
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:54,729
both of our parent I'll just Herald put

960
00:39:57,740 --> 00:39:55,770
off and Ingo

961
00:40:01,190 --> 00:39:57,750
one other word the three and then Targ

962
00:40:04,250 --> 00:40:01,200
was not but he was close with them and

963
00:40:05,720 --> 00:40:04,260
then they say they left the religion

964
00:40:07,850 --> 00:40:05,730
which is fine I mean we can't you know

965
00:40:09,590 --> 00:40:07,860
you're not guilty because you go to a

966
00:40:11,060 --> 00:40:09,600
couple of meetings read a couple books

967
00:40:13,580 --> 00:40:11,070
or notice that you're not kind of

968
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:13,590
scarred for life but I do my children's

969
00:40:18,290 --> 00:40:16,110
not idea of well we can't know that I

970
00:40:20,990 --> 00:40:18,300
mean I guess that's that's kind of one

971
00:40:24,020 --> 00:40:21,000
of my problems with religious studies

972
00:40:27,020 --> 00:40:24,030
kind of angle it's like well we can know

973
00:40:29,180 --> 00:40:27,030
this over here we can understand how it

974
00:40:31,490 --> 00:40:29,190
impacts culture and how we look but we

975
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:31,500
can't know this well we can come a lot

976
00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:33,090
closer to knowing it I'm like I say

977
00:40:38,990 --> 00:40:35,910
they've released tens of thousands of

978
00:40:40,820 --> 00:40:39,000
pages of documents we have proof you

979
00:40:43,100 --> 00:40:40,830
know Jessica Utz goes and does

980
00:40:45,350 --> 00:40:43,110
statistical the Jimmy Carter announces

981
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:45,360
that remote viewing works and that they

982
00:40:50,690 --> 00:40:46,770
found a plane that way

983
00:40:52,730 --> 00:40:50,700
so did we really have to then come back

984
00:40:55,130 --> 00:40:52,740
and say wait a minute we're not really

985
00:40:57,970 --> 00:40:55,140
sure we know if any of that's true it

986
00:41:00,110 --> 00:40:57,980
just sounds like the same old you know

987
00:41:01,910 --> 00:41:00,120
biological robot meaningless universe

988
00:41:04,610 --> 00:41:01,920
we're not sure that consciousness is

989
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:04,620
real or maybe it's just an illusion kind

990
00:41:09,020 --> 00:41:07,050
of thing I think that's so limiting I

991
00:41:11,060 --> 00:41:09,030
don't think we can really get to the

992
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:11,070
heart of any of this stuff from that

993
00:41:14,930 --> 00:41:13,410
standpoint no I'm not saying that it

994
00:41:17,720 --> 00:41:14,940
goes back to the distinction I made

995
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:17,730
earlier when you asked me about my my

996
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:19,650
background and my beliefs for and how

997
00:41:26,750 --> 00:41:22,370
that wasted my scholarship so I think as

998
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:26,760
an individual you might believe that or

999
00:41:30,590 --> 00:41:28,650
know that and that's fine

1000
00:41:34,430 --> 00:41:30,600
but in terms of what I would write about

1001
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:34,440
in an academic book I'm going to I think

1002
00:41:39,740 --> 00:41:36,690
bracket that belief and talk about what

1003
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:39,750
can be kind of verified and empirically

1004
00:41:46,010 --> 00:41:42,810
right and so and that's my that's why

1005
00:41:47,180 --> 00:41:46,020
you sent me to see that's my view and if

1006
00:41:49,670 --> 00:41:47,190
you ask jeff kraebel he would give you a

1007
00:41:50,630 --> 00:41:49,680
different answer right I don't think so

1008
00:41:51,950 --> 00:41:50,640
because I've asked him a couple times

1009
00:41:54,890 --> 00:41:51,960
and he basically gives the same answer

1010
00:41:56,630 --> 00:41:54,900
and my pushback on that is but but wait

1011
00:41:59,600 --> 00:41:56,640
we're both playing what if we both agree

1012
00:42:01,250 --> 00:41:59,610
to play by the same rules so science you

1013
00:42:03,770 --> 00:42:01,260
know let's just agree to play by the

1014
00:42:05,570 --> 00:42:03,780
science rules and we look at scientific

1015
00:42:06,870 --> 00:42:05,580
studies peer-reviewed scientific studies

1016
00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:06,880
and remote viewing

1017
00:42:10,860 --> 00:42:09,040
establishes that it's true right you

1018
00:42:12,990 --> 00:42:10,870
look at the physics behind it and the

1019
00:42:15,750 --> 00:42:13,000
quantum physics behind it that suggests

1020
00:42:17,490 --> 00:42:15,760
that it's at least a possibility and

1021
00:42:19,410 --> 00:42:17,500
then we look at when they do controlled

1022
00:42:22,050 --> 00:42:19,420
experiments with remote viewing and labs

1023
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:22,060
and again blinded and controlled and

1024
00:42:26,310 --> 00:42:22,690
stuff like that

1025
00:42:28,350 --> 00:42:26,320
so it's a reality so then why why do we

1026
00:42:30,720 --> 00:42:28,360
have to kind of treat it as a you know

1027
00:42:33,870 --> 00:42:30,730
well it's outside of kind of the

1028
00:42:36,860 --> 00:42:33,880
standard dogma of the social sciences

1029
00:42:39,810 --> 00:42:36,870
College at Ohio State so it's not really

1030
00:42:43,710 --> 00:42:39,820
you know what I'm saying well there's a

1031
00:42:45,060 --> 00:42:43,720
couple answers to that one is that maybe

1032
00:42:47,670 --> 00:42:45,070
remote viewing is real I've never

1033
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:47,680
experienced it myself so I don't have

1034
00:42:51,630 --> 00:42:49,210
first-hand knowledge into that second

1035
00:42:52,890 --> 00:42:51,640
your point about scientific studies I

1036
00:42:54,260 --> 00:42:52,900
mean you could also cite a lot of

1037
00:42:58,230 --> 00:42:54,270
literature that would debunk it as

1038
00:42:59,880 --> 00:42:58,240
pseudoscience right and then third I

1039
00:43:01,800 --> 00:42:59,890
think everything is like that right I

1040
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:01,810
mean everything we have to sort out all

1041
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:03,490
that stuff I mean you didn't you haven't

1042
00:43:08,610 --> 00:43:05,970
had direct experience with Osho's

1043
00:43:10,230 --> 00:43:08,620
meditation techniques and you're you're

1044
00:43:12,450 --> 00:43:10,240
writing on them and you're talking to

1045
00:43:14,460 --> 00:43:12,460
folks I mean it's not all about direct

1046
00:43:16,140 --> 00:43:14,470
experience right well actually I have I

1047
00:43:17,730 --> 00:43:16,150
do have direct experience of isn't

1048
00:43:21,060 --> 00:43:17,740
meditation techniques they're really

1049
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:21,070
tiring by the way but the third point is

1050
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:22,450
gonna make it maybe the most practical

1051
00:43:30,390 --> 00:43:27,610
one is that in the system of academic

1052
00:43:33,330 --> 00:43:30,400
publishing which is governed by peer

1053
00:43:37,740 --> 00:43:33,340
review and kind of academic consensus if

1054
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:37,750
you wrote something that stated you 100%

1055
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:40,090
believed in remote viewing you would

1056
00:43:44,390 --> 00:43:41,890
most likely not be published by an

1057
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:44,400
academic press you could be published by

1058
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:47,410
other kinds of presses but it's you know

1059
00:43:53,820 --> 00:43:50,530
it's just the way the rules of academia

1060
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:53,830
work some people push up against that a

1061
00:43:58,500 --> 00:43:56,410
little bit but for the most part you

1062
00:44:00,390 --> 00:43:58,510
would probably be dismissed I think in

1063
00:44:02,670 --> 00:44:00,400
academic publishing circles though not

1064
00:44:04,740 --> 00:44:02,680
other circles oh I totally get that but

1065
00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:04,750
then that's a religious issue isn't it

1066
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:06,640
really I mean that just becomes a

1067
00:44:12,030 --> 00:44:09,970
certain dogma you know that it has to be

1068
00:44:15,210 --> 00:44:12,040
followed and I get that over and over

1069
00:44:17,460 --> 00:44:15,220
again talk to many scholars you know no

1070
00:44:19,260 --> 00:44:17,470
matter how they do it CrossFit just

1071
00:44:20,620 --> 00:44:19,270
talked to a brilliant guy did

1072
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:20,630
cross-cultural and now

1073
00:44:25,510 --> 00:44:23,810
this of near-death experience but still

1074
00:44:28,270 --> 00:44:25,520
you know you talk to him and he has to

1075
00:44:30,310 --> 00:44:28,280
talk this double-talk like well I can't

1076
00:44:32,380 --> 00:44:30,320
really say one way or another all my

1077
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:32,390
data points in one direction but I don't

1078
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:34,010
know that I can really come to any

1079
00:44:38,500 --> 00:44:35,930
conclusion I think for a lot of us

1080
00:44:42,550 --> 00:44:38,510
sitting on the outside we just lose

1081
00:44:44,350 --> 00:44:42,560
trust in academia in general in the

1082
00:44:46,180 --> 00:44:44,360
scholarship in general so it's teasing

1083
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:46,190
out you know what we want to keep and

1084
00:44:49,870 --> 00:44:48,290
what we want to leave out but if I have

1085
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:49,880
a feeling that you're having to operate

1086
00:44:54,220 --> 00:44:51,770
with one arm tied behind your back I

1087
00:44:56,560 --> 00:44:54,230
mean that really does slant how I kind

1088
00:44:58,180 --> 00:44:56,570
of view this stuff I don't I don't say

1089
00:44:58,420 --> 00:44:58,190
this operating one hand tied behind my

1090
00:45:01,000 --> 00:44:58,430
back

1091
00:45:02,980 --> 00:45:01,010
I just think that there are different

1092
00:45:06,220 --> 00:45:02,990
there are different spheres of discourse

1093
00:45:09,010 --> 00:45:06,230
and which the rules like the rules of a

1094
00:45:12,130 --> 00:45:09,020
language are different and so there are

1095
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:12,140
many publishing venues where writing

1096
00:45:15,100 --> 00:45:13,370
openly about your belief and remote

1097
00:45:17,020 --> 00:45:15,110
viewing would be fine and there are

1098
00:45:21,070 --> 00:45:17,030
others where they would meet with a lot

1099
00:45:22,990 --> 00:45:21,080
of intense skepticism and so you just

1100
00:45:25,660 --> 00:45:23,000
have to learn how to speak the language

1101
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:25,670
of a particular sphere of discourse is

1102
00:45:29,260 --> 00:45:26,210
all I'm saying

1103
00:45:30,790 --> 00:45:29,270
yeah I got a push that just the tiny bit

1104
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:30,800
further because I deal with this stuff

1105
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:32,570
all the time but to me it'd be like

1106
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:35,090
saying well you know the Flat Earth

1107
00:45:39,310 --> 00:45:36,650
so there's a certain group of people

1108
00:45:41,140 --> 00:45:39,320
that believe in Flat Earth and we cannot

1109
00:45:44,050 --> 00:45:41,150
offend those people so we have to be

1110
00:45:47,500 --> 00:45:44,060
spherically neutral you know or if the

1111
00:45:50,770 --> 00:45:47,510
Ohio State University Department of Arts

1112
00:45:54,430 --> 00:45:50,780
and Sciences decided that Flat Earth was

1113
00:45:56,290 --> 00:45:54,440
the prevailing kind of wisdom of the day

1114
00:45:57,970 --> 00:45:56,300
then everyone would have to conform to

1115
00:45:59,200 --> 00:45:57,980
that no I mean I think the way it's

1116
00:46:02,620 --> 00:45:59,210
supposed to work is we're supposed to

1117
00:46:05,530 --> 00:46:02,630
lean on science and the larger body of

1118
00:46:08,830 --> 00:46:05,540
knowledge to define what reality is and

1119
00:46:10,870 --> 00:46:08,840
then move our set of beliefs to that so

1120
00:46:12,730 --> 00:46:10,880
when we don't see that movement and when

1121
00:46:15,070 --> 00:46:12,740
we see our so stuck in kind of this

1122
00:46:17,740 --> 00:46:15,080
dogma that doesn't allow us to kind of

1123
00:46:20,830 --> 00:46:17,750
fully understand I mean these people are

1124
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:20,840
talking about summoning creating a

1125
00:46:25,630 --> 00:46:23,570
spirit in summoning that spirit and

1126
00:46:27,820 --> 00:46:25,640
marshaling it to do their work the

1127
00:46:30,220 --> 00:46:27,830
Antichrist and then we have the United

1128
00:46:32,620 --> 00:46:30,230
States government who is doing the exact

1129
00:46:34,450 --> 00:46:32,630
same thing and we understand why they're

1130
00:46:37,450 --> 00:46:34,460
doing it too because they're saying hey

1131
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:37,460
if that can be done it weren't in charge

1132
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:39,170
of defending you then we better do it

1133
00:46:42,339 --> 00:46:40,490
first we better do it before those

1134
00:46:44,589 --> 00:46:42,349
Russians do it that's the rationale and

1135
00:46:47,890 --> 00:46:44,599
that's the path we're going down don't

1136
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:47,900
we have to kind of get a little bit more

1137
00:46:53,380 --> 00:46:50,930
inside the game there and at least try

1138
00:46:56,170 --> 00:46:53,390
and understand what the implications are

1139
00:47:00,520 --> 00:46:56,180
if there is a reality to that extended

1140
00:47:02,170 --> 00:47:00,530
consciousness room sure but an academic

1141
00:47:04,839 --> 00:47:02,180
text might not be the best place to do

1142
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:04,849
that and so you can you can do both at

1143
00:47:11,099 --> 00:47:06,970
the same time you can pursue your own

1144
00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:11,109
interests and beliefs on one hand and

1145
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:13,730
play the academic game on the other you

1146
00:47:18,099 --> 00:47:15,650
you know you don't have to do one or the

1147
00:47:20,710 --> 00:47:18,109
other fair enough you know I'm just

1148
00:47:23,230 --> 00:47:20,720
playing around here there's a there's a

1149
00:47:25,270 --> 00:47:23,240
lot of great stuff in what you've done

1150
00:47:29,050 --> 00:47:25,280
and the scholarship is important folks

1151
00:47:31,900 --> 00:47:29,060
cuz who else is doing this the way that

1152
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:31,910
dr. urban and his colleagues are doing

1153
00:47:36,370 --> 00:47:33,770
it at least they're raising these issues

1154
00:47:38,560 --> 00:47:36,380
up in a way that we can kind of take a

1155
00:47:41,170 --> 00:47:38,570
step back from the usual knee-jerk

1156
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:41,180
reaction and look at those but I'm going

1157
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:45,410
to persist with my poking okay next I

1158
00:47:52,420 --> 00:47:49,250
guess would be looking at religious

1159
00:47:53,620 --> 00:47:52,430
studies from a religious context you

1160
00:47:55,990 --> 00:47:53,630
know I just had the opportunity to

1161
00:48:00,359 --> 00:47:56,000
interview this guy really an impressive

1162
00:48:03,579 --> 00:48:00,369
guy to me his name is Kevin in it and

1163
00:48:07,079 --> 00:48:03,589
talk about someone who's lived the

1164
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:07,089
reality of the sometimes sordid

1165
00:48:14,260 --> 00:48:09,770
relationship between church and state

1166
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:14,270
and really cults in places that we don't

1167
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:18,170
normally associate with being cultish so

1168
00:48:25,750 --> 00:48:20,770
Kevin's history just really quickly is

1169
00:48:28,780 --> 00:48:25,760
former minister in the church in Canada

1170
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:28,790
who became a whistleblower after he

1171
00:48:33,250 --> 00:48:31,490
revealed these really horrific crimes

1172
00:48:37,210 --> 00:48:33,260
against children carried out by the

1173
00:48:39,460 --> 00:48:37,220
state and really by the church in kind

1174
00:48:41,470 --> 00:48:39,470
of conspiratorial relationship with the

1175
00:48:44,609 --> 00:48:41,480
state and let me just interject this

1176
00:48:47,770 --> 00:48:44,619
stuff is proven now this is admitted by

1177
00:48:52,060 --> 00:48:47,780
Canada they've apologized they've

1178
00:48:54,310 --> 00:48:52,070
documents it's true it's again proven

1179
00:48:56,710 --> 00:48:54,320
but that is kind of the beginning of

1180
00:48:59,350 --> 00:48:56,720
Kevin's work he's since doing that

1181
00:49:03,100 --> 00:48:59,360
almost 20 years ago he's continued to

1182
00:49:06,550 --> 00:49:03,110
look at kind of the nefarious activities

1183
00:49:08,380 --> 00:49:06,560
inside what we would call old religions

1184
00:49:09,850 --> 00:49:08,390
but I think if we're gonna look at new

1185
00:49:12,430 --> 00:49:09,860
religions we have to look at all the

1186
00:49:16,510 --> 00:49:12,440
religions - he actually went to Brussels

1187
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:16,520
and he organized the International

1188
00:49:20,770 --> 00:49:18,650
common law Court of Justice which some

1189
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:20,780
people don't think much of but they did

1190
00:49:25,390 --> 00:49:22,970
get a ruling against protein spoke

1191
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:25,400
Francis found him guilty of rape torture

1192
00:49:31,030 --> 00:49:27,770
murder this was widely reported in the

1193
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:31,040
media they brought eyewitnesses forward

1194
00:49:36,370 --> 00:49:34,130
who not only talked about their personal

1195
00:49:37,660 --> 00:49:36,380
experience with that which again is all

1196
00:49:40,500 --> 00:49:37,670
over the news that's not like super

1197
00:49:43,540 --> 00:49:40,510
controversial now because so many of the

1198
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:43,550
people at the highest level even right

1199
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:45,170
below the Pope but all the way around

1200
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:47,570
the world are in jail for these same

1201
00:49:53,620 --> 00:49:50,450
kind of crimes but in this hearing you

1202
00:49:56,170 --> 00:49:53,630
know they had 48 eyewitness accounts

1203
00:49:59,710 --> 00:49:56,180
about activities including satanic

1204
00:50:03,630 --> 00:49:59,720
ritual abuse so my question for you

1205
00:50:06,280 --> 00:50:03,640
though is not whether Kevin Annette is

1206
00:50:07,750 --> 00:50:06,290
telling the truth or whether any of this

1207
00:50:10,690 --> 00:50:07,760
stuff is true because we can't possibly

1208
00:50:14,290 --> 00:50:10,700
expect you to sort through that the

1209
00:50:16,920 --> 00:50:14,300
question really is is that even

1210
00:50:19,420 --> 00:50:16,930
something that needs to be considered

1211
00:50:22,060 --> 00:50:19,430
considered religious studies I mean this

1212
00:50:24,850 --> 00:50:22,070
is a criminal organization cult

1213
00:50:28,870 --> 00:50:24,860
organization do we need to have that

1214
00:50:30,940 --> 00:50:28,880
square on the table yeah in fact I argue

1215
00:50:35,770 --> 00:50:30,950
that point in the Scientology book and

1216
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:35,780
also the book there are cases where new

1217
00:50:40,140 --> 00:50:37,610
liberties movements and mainstreaming

1218
00:50:44,020 --> 00:50:40,150
religious movements do horrible things

1219
00:50:46,210 --> 00:50:44,030
covering up priests sex abuse or in the

1220
00:50:48,660 --> 00:50:46,220
case of Scientology breaking into IRS

1221
00:50:51,580 --> 00:50:48,670
offices and stealing documents or their

1222
00:50:54,010 --> 00:50:51,590
rehabilitation project force program

1223
00:50:57,190 --> 00:50:54,020
which has been accused of human rights

1224
00:50:58,480 --> 00:50:57,200
violations so I think there's a lot of

1225
00:51:00,750 --> 00:50:58,490
evidence in the case of Scientology that

1226
00:51:03,480 --> 00:51:00,760
that's stuff has happened

1227
00:51:05,670 --> 00:51:03,490
probably continues to happen so the

1228
00:51:07,140 --> 00:51:05,680
attitude of respect that I was talking

1229
00:51:10,100 --> 00:51:07,150
about doesn't mean that we shouldn't

1230
00:51:12,390 --> 00:51:10,110
also look really critically at the

1231
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:12,400
really problematic things that religious

1232
00:51:18,180 --> 00:51:15,610
groups often do as well so I think it

1233
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:18,190
can be generally respectful of the

1234
00:51:23,460 --> 00:51:21,010
movement then but then also you know

1235
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:23,470
look very carefully at things that

1236
00:51:27,240 --> 00:51:25,090
they've done that might be unethical or

1237
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:27,250
illegal I don't think those are mutually

1238
00:51:33,480 --> 00:51:31,330
exclusive well I think maybe they are I

1239
00:51:35,550 --> 00:51:33,490
mean at some point the respect thing has

1240
00:51:39,060 --> 00:51:35,560
to fall away and I think this is where

1241
00:51:41,400 --> 00:51:39,070
most people sit they say wait at some

1242
00:51:45,020 --> 00:51:41,410
point we're talking about an

1243
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:45,030
organization whose primary function is

1244
00:51:53,340 --> 00:51:49,570
criminality and I guess my question and

1245
00:51:55,530 --> 00:51:53,350
concern is can we get there from here in

1246
00:51:57,720 --> 00:51:55,540
terms of answering that question because

1247
00:52:00,180 --> 00:51:57,730
if that's the case we do have a

1248
00:52:02,250 --> 00:52:00,190
different situation

1249
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:02,260
I like how at the beginning you said hey

1250
00:52:06,090 --> 00:52:03,970
well we have a tradition in the

1251
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:06,100
Constitution and we have a legal kind of

1252
00:52:12,090 --> 00:52:09,490
thing but most people are kind of that's

1253
00:52:15,510 --> 00:52:12,100
part of their reality but the reality

1254
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:15,520
where they sit is to say Jesus get these

1255
00:52:22,140 --> 00:52:19,090
guys throw them in jail throw away the

1256
00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:22,150
key and we need to look at changing the

1257
00:52:27,090 --> 00:52:24,730
laws not you know don't recite to me the

1258
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:27,100
code and the law and all that stuff

1259
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:30,010
something is fundamentally messed up

1260
00:52:34,470 --> 00:52:32,410
here and we need to fix it how do you

1261
00:52:37,290 --> 00:52:34,480
just find it bad I would say if you have

1262
00:52:38,610 --> 00:52:37,300
a priest who's molesting children put

1263
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:38,620
him in jail and throw away the key as

1264
00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:41,650
far as I'm concerned if you have yeah

1265
00:52:45,720 --> 00:52:43,570
but I'm talking about the what if the

1266
00:52:46,980 --> 00:52:45,730
whole thing is basically a traumatic

1267
00:52:48,780 --> 00:52:46,990
organization well that's a different

1268
00:52:51,750 --> 00:52:48,790
question and that's where Scientology is

1269
00:52:54,240 --> 00:52:51,760
a complicated case because in decay in

1270
00:52:55,740 --> 00:52:54,250
Scientology for example the operation

1271
00:52:58,200 --> 00:52:55,750
Snow White that was launched to

1272
00:52:59,880 --> 00:52:58,210
infiltrate the IRS offices it does seem

1273
00:53:02,370 --> 00:52:59,890
that that came from the top right it

1274
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:02,380
seems that that was instigated by Mary

1275
00:53:06,750 --> 00:53:04,330
Sue Hubbard Hubbard's wife and he was

1276
00:53:09,780 --> 00:53:06,760
probably directly involved and a bunch

1277
00:53:12,210 --> 00:53:09,790
of top-level Scientologists to jail but

1278
00:53:13,870 --> 00:53:12,220
but does that mean that Scientology from

1279
00:53:16,090 --> 00:53:13,880
top to bottom

1280
00:53:17,470 --> 00:53:16,100
is a criminal organization I think

1281
00:53:19,720 --> 00:53:17,480
that's them becomes more complicated

1282
00:53:21,550 --> 00:53:19,730
because you still have many many

1283
00:53:23,380 --> 00:53:21,560
run-of-the-mill Scientologists who had

1284
00:53:24,990 --> 00:53:23,390
nothing to do with criminal activities

1285
00:53:27,610 --> 00:53:25,000
and still take it very seriously so

1286
00:53:31,920 --> 00:53:27,620
they're I mean that's a hard question do

1287
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:31,930
you have to throw the whole movement out

1288
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:34,490
if leadership is involved in criminal

1289
00:53:39,250 --> 00:53:37,130
activities or where can you still say

1290
00:53:41,110 --> 00:53:39,260
well it's still meaningful to the

1291
00:53:44,140 --> 00:53:41,120
majority of people involved despite the

1292
00:53:46,270 --> 00:53:44,150
fact that those at the top are engaged

1293
00:53:49,180 --> 00:53:46,280
in really problematic activities and and

1294
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:49,190
so I I kind of leave that up to the

1295
00:53:54,610 --> 00:53:51,050
reader to make up their own minds on

1296
00:53:58,840 --> 00:53:54,620
that I have my views but in my book

1297
00:54:02,890 --> 00:53:58,850
abuse my views there's a hard question

1298
00:54:04,780 --> 00:54:02,900
but I I tend to value freedom of

1299
00:54:06,850 --> 00:54:04,790
religious expression and the First

1300
00:54:09,460 --> 00:54:06,860
Amendment and all of that so I think on

1301
00:54:11,350 --> 00:54:09,470
the whole it's probably better to err on

1302
00:54:13,740 --> 00:54:11,360
the side of giving movements the benefit

1303
00:54:16,780 --> 00:54:13,750
of the doubt even if that means that

1304
00:54:21,190 --> 00:54:16,790
sometimes we let slip through some of

1305
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:21,200
the problematic groups and and you know

1306
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:22,610
there are a lot of people who have

1307
00:54:29,290 --> 00:54:24,170
argued that what Scientology needs is

1308
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:29,300
some kind of reformation right that that

1309
00:54:34,720 --> 00:54:32,690
there's enough there that is valuable

1310
00:54:36,970 --> 00:54:34,730
that you could salvage that while

1311
00:54:38,410 --> 00:54:36,980
acknowledging that Hubbard and others

1312
00:54:41,530 --> 00:54:38,420
did really problematic things so there

1313
00:54:44,530 --> 00:54:41,540
actually is a wing that wants to reform

1314
00:54:48,070 --> 00:54:44,540
Scientology while still salvaging the

1315
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:48,080
valuable parts of it okay let's probe

1316
00:54:54,090 --> 00:54:51,890
that with one kind of final point let's

1317
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:54,100
make one other quick point absolutely

1318
00:55:00,040 --> 00:54:57,410
you can also point to examples within

1319
00:55:02,890 --> 00:55:00,050
Christianity where the leadership was

1320
00:55:04,990 --> 00:55:02,900
incredibly corrupt I mean the Middle

1321
00:55:07,810 --> 00:55:05,000
Ages are filled with bad Pope's right

1322
00:55:10,540 --> 00:55:07,820
bad Pope's having bad Cardinals that

1323
00:55:12,910 --> 00:55:10,550
doesn't mean that the entire Catholic

1324
00:55:14,950 --> 00:55:12,920
Church from top to bottom is a corrupt

1325
00:55:18,610 --> 00:55:14,960
organization wait hold on

1326
00:55:20,830 --> 00:55:18,620
we'll stop we don't know that that's I

1327
00:55:23,740 --> 00:55:20,840
guess the part the part that IIIi want

1328
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:23,750
to say we're not doing our job if we

1329
00:55:27,400 --> 00:55:26,450
don't ask that question because that

1330
00:55:30,309 --> 00:55:27,410
would be

1331
00:55:32,079 --> 00:55:30,319
one very straightforward read of this

1332
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:32,089
situation you know I always point to

1333
00:55:36,240 --> 00:55:34,010
when when I first got out of college I

1334
00:55:41,260 --> 00:55:36,250
went to work for a consultant a

1335
00:55:42,730 --> 00:55:41,270
consulting firm a big CPA firm and the

1336
00:55:44,859 --> 00:55:42,740
largest at that time was a company

1337
00:55:46,690 --> 00:55:44,869
called Arthur Andersen the company

1338
00:55:50,680 --> 00:55:46,700
doesn't exist anymore it was the largest

1339
00:55:52,839 --> 00:55:50,690
accounting firm in the world Enron which

1340
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:52,849
a lot of people I'm older as I remember

1341
00:55:58,299 --> 00:55:55,970
but when Enron collapsed they went to

1342
00:56:01,000 --> 00:55:58,309
the people who were auditing Enron which

1343
00:56:04,059 --> 00:56:01,010
was Arthur Andersen and they said you

1344
00:56:06,819 --> 00:56:04,069
know what you have so violated your

1345
00:56:10,059 --> 00:56:06,829
fiduciary your fiduciary responsibility

1346
00:56:12,370 --> 00:56:10,069
to the public that you don't need to

1347
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:12,380
exist anymore now I know for a fact

1348
00:56:17,170 --> 00:56:14,770
there are a lot of really good people

1349
00:56:19,809 --> 00:56:17,180
working it on it are three understand

1350
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:19,819
honest people hard-working people people

1351
00:56:25,079 --> 00:56:21,890
who work their whole life and saved in

1352
00:56:28,809 --> 00:56:25,089
their 401k and all then built a career

1353
00:56:31,299 --> 00:56:28,819
gone out on the streets that's the way

1354
00:56:34,390 --> 00:56:31,309
we're supposed to function why do we

1355
00:56:37,569 --> 00:56:34,400
have this kind of craziness about

1356
00:56:39,190 --> 00:56:37,579
religion where we can't say hey maybe it

1357
00:56:41,980 --> 00:56:39,200
really is a criminally corrupt

1358
00:56:44,890 --> 00:56:41,990
organization maybe it's always been

1359
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:44,900
about control more than it's been about

1360
00:56:50,500 --> 00:56:47,930
this spirituality and however we are to

1361
00:56:53,230 --> 00:56:50,510
understand that spirituality it would

1362
00:56:55,510 --> 00:56:53,240
seem to be from your work and a larger

1363
00:56:58,960 --> 00:56:55,520
body of work and religious studies is

1364
00:57:01,359 --> 00:56:58,970
that spiritual impulse seems to be able

1365
00:57:02,769 --> 00:57:01,369
to sprout anywhere it doesn't need one

1366
00:57:05,710 --> 00:57:02,779
particular form or another

1367
00:57:07,390 --> 00:57:05,720
why not question that no that's a little

1368
00:57:09,279 --> 00:57:07,400
bit question and it's something that I

1369
00:57:11,380 --> 00:57:09,289
do deal with in the Scientology book is

1370
00:57:15,250 --> 00:57:11,390
that I think particularly the United

1371
00:57:17,529 --> 00:57:15,260
States the designation religion tends to

1372
00:57:19,269 --> 00:57:17,539
give groups a special kind of protection

1373
00:57:21,690 --> 00:57:19,279
and immunity and I think that's one

1374
00:57:24,849 --> 00:57:21,700
reason that Scientology has not been

1375
00:57:27,430 --> 00:57:24,859
investigated more critically by law

1376
00:57:29,410 --> 00:57:27,440
enforcement is that because of its

1377
00:57:31,900 --> 00:57:29,420
religious status that could this be more

1378
00:57:34,299 --> 00:57:31,910
of a hands-off sort of approach with

1379
00:57:38,380 --> 00:57:34,309
with them and other religious groups

1380
00:57:40,180 --> 00:57:38,390
because of the long history of

1381
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:40,190
protections for religious groups and you

1382
00:57:41,859 --> 00:57:40,490
know

1383
00:57:43,380 --> 00:57:41,869
the State Department issues an annual

1384
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:43,390
report and religious freedom and and

1385
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:45,770
defends groups like Scientology and the

1386
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:46,970
way they're being treated in other

1387
00:57:53,020 --> 00:57:49,810
countries like Germany so I think

1388
00:57:55,089 --> 00:57:53,030
because of the history of religion and

1389
00:57:56,829 --> 00:57:55,099
the First Amendment in the u.s. we have

1390
00:57:59,470 --> 00:57:56,839
tended to give religious groups a

1391
00:58:04,960 --> 00:57:59,480
special protection and I think you could

1392
00:58:06,370 --> 00:58:04,970
argue that that that is problematic you

1393
00:58:08,170 --> 00:58:06,380
had more to your question that I am

1394
00:58:10,930 --> 00:58:08,180
forgetting now can you cut it we know

1395
00:58:13,870 --> 00:58:10,940
you're you're generous to answer all

1396
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:13,880
these kind of oddball questions and I

1397
00:58:18,430 --> 00:58:15,650
appreciate you a lot it's not I mean

1398
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:18,440
that last question is a central one

1399
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:19,970
don't thinking about not to Scientology

1400
00:58:26,680 --> 00:58:21,890
but the whole history of religion in the

1401
00:58:31,180 --> 00:58:26,690
u.s. well you feel that way because I

1402
00:58:34,240 --> 00:58:31,190
feel like this is oh I know what I was

1403
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:34,250
gonna say next is that and one might

1404
00:58:39,609 --> 00:58:36,410
well conclude as you're suggesting that

1405
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:39,619
that a group like the Catholic Church is

1406
00:58:43,690 --> 00:58:42,410
corrupt from top to bottom and that

1407
00:58:46,180 --> 00:58:43,700
might be the conclusion that you reach

1408
00:58:47,950 --> 00:58:46,190
but I don't see the Catholic Church or

1409
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:47,960
Scientology for that matter going away

1410
00:58:53,680 --> 00:58:50,330
anytime soon so therefore they're still

1411
00:58:57,940 --> 00:58:53,690
in need of study and scholarship and

1412
00:59:00,490 --> 00:58:57,950
analysis totally agree no and that's why

1413
00:59:05,349 --> 00:59:00,500
I think that no matter how one feels

1414
00:59:08,290 --> 00:59:05,359
about the kind of academic approach

1415
00:59:09,420 --> 00:59:08,300
which is this kind of tension that we

1416
00:59:12,640 --> 00:59:09,430
talking about from the very beginning

1417
00:59:14,020 --> 00:59:12,650
there's value there and there's value in

1418
00:59:15,970 --> 00:59:14,030
the scholarship that you bring and

1419
00:59:17,859 --> 00:59:15,980
that's why folks within this community

1420
00:59:20,290 --> 00:59:17,869
are praising this work and saying hey

1421
00:59:21,490 --> 00:59:20,300
here's a guy who's you know as you

1422
00:59:23,650 --> 00:59:21,500
alluded to a lot of people aren't going

1423
00:59:25,450 --> 00:59:23,660
to like you it's like the old pioneer

1424
00:59:27,250 --> 00:59:25,460
story you know that you're as the guy

1425
00:59:30,430 --> 00:59:27,260
who gets arrows in the front way in the

1426
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:30,440
back right yeah it does aggravating

1427
00:59:35,650 --> 00:59:33,410
because they want they want the scholar

1428
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:35,660
to take a stand and say no Scientology

1429
00:59:41,650 --> 00:59:37,970
is bad Scientology is a dangerous cult

1430
00:59:43,270 --> 00:59:41,660
and least I resist that sort of judgment

1431
00:59:48,070 --> 00:59:43,280
and this came up actually I was giving a

1432
00:59:50,079 --> 00:59:48,080
talk at Princeton on Osho and there was

1433
00:59:52,710 --> 00:59:50,089
a pro Osho guy who had flown all the way

1434
00:59:54,279 --> 00:59:52,720
from California to come and see the talk

1435
00:59:55,839 --> 00:59:54,289
space effectively

1436
00:59:59,559 --> 00:59:55,849
forty minute little presentation and

1437
01:00:02,189 --> 00:59:59,569
then there was a Osho hater who had been

1438
01:00:05,999 --> 01:00:02,199
raped by a no-show member in Hawaii and

1439
01:00:08,979 --> 01:00:06,009
thought oh sure was condoning rape and

1440
01:00:12,429 --> 01:00:08,989
so it led to a lively discussion sure I

1441
01:00:14,019 --> 01:00:12,439
always say and they were both kind of

1442
01:00:16,209 --> 01:00:14,029
unhappy that I was being either too

1443
01:00:18,370 --> 01:00:16,219
critical or too generous and I was

1444
01:00:20,199 --> 01:00:18,380
explaining that the whole point is to

1445
01:00:21,370 --> 01:00:20,209
try to be balanced and to get a full

1446
01:00:23,620 --> 01:00:21,380
picture of the movement that would

1447
01:00:26,169 --> 01:00:23,630
acknowledge problematic aspects but also

1448
01:00:28,509 --> 01:00:26,179
try to understand why anyone would find

1449
01:00:30,939 --> 01:00:28,519
this persuasive or valuable in the first

1450
01:00:33,669 --> 01:00:30,949
place so again you're gonna piss off

1451
01:00:35,349 --> 01:00:33,679
someone on either side but I think it

1452
01:00:37,390 --> 01:00:35,359
allows you to get a fuller picture of

1453
01:00:40,209 --> 01:00:37,400
the rublon fair enough I'll tell you in

1454
01:00:42,269 --> 01:00:40,219
the final point that kind of I would

1455
01:00:44,799 --> 01:00:42,279
draw out in terms of this

1456
01:00:46,329 --> 01:00:44,809
contextualizing religious studies you

1457
01:00:49,209 --> 01:00:46,339
know the different context that we kind

1458
01:00:51,069 --> 01:00:49,219
of put it in I'm still scratching at

1459
01:00:53,709 --> 01:00:51,079
this thing that I talked about from the

1460
01:00:58,479 --> 01:00:53,719
beginning hue and that is the spiritual

1461
01:01:03,549 --> 01:00:58,489
part of it because I'm a little just a

1462
01:01:06,399 --> 01:01:03,559
little quick cloak from Eckhart totally

1463
01:01:09,729 --> 01:01:06,409
and he says and when I say normal I mean

1464
01:01:12,729 --> 01:01:09,739
insane so but the larger quote is he's

1465
01:01:14,589 --> 01:01:12,739
talking about you know the from an

1466
01:01:15,939 --> 01:01:14,599
Eastern perspective you totally

1467
01:01:19,059 --> 01:01:15,949
understand where he's coming from in

1468
01:01:20,799 --> 01:01:19,069
terms of a non dual in terms of the mind

1469
01:01:23,079 --> 01:01:20,809
the voice inside our head that we all

1470
01:01:25,089 --> 01:01:23,089
recognize as our consciousness and then

1471
01:01:29,019 --> 01:01:25,099
when he really breaks that down he says

1472
01:01:32,380 --> 01:01:29,029
but of course it's rather insane to kind

1473
01:01:34,899 --> 01:01:32,390
of believe that that really is who we

1474
01:01:39,039 --> 01:01:34,909
are so let me play this clip and then

1475
01:01:41,739 --> 01:01:39,049
let's talk about maybe what my

1476
01:01:45,909 --> 01:01:41,749
understanding of what spirituality is

1477
01:01:49,479 --> 01:01:45,919
and why I'm kind of upset here that I

1478
01:01:51,669 --> 01:01:49,489
don't see religious studies really

1479
01:01:55,509 --> 01:01:51,679
trying to get to the meat of the issue

1480
01:01:59,039 --> 01:01:55,519
let me play a cart for you so you give

1481
01:02:03,779 --> 01:01:59,049
up on knowing the accumulated knowledge

1482
01:02:07,030 --> 01:02:03,789
the mind made itself that consists of

1483
01:02:11,650 --> 01:02:07,040
accumulated thought forms

1484
01:02:16,290 --> 01:02:11,660
so as we sit here we are dying little

1485
01:02:20,620 --> 01:02:16,300
death and realize that nothing real

1486
01:02:26,380 --> 01:02:20,630
actually died only the illusion of a

1487
01:02:32,230 --> 01:02:26,390
false self what remains is consciousness

1488
01:02:34,750 --> 01:02:32,240
a very bare fact that you are so in this

1489
01:02:38,230 --> 01:02:34,760
moment is the opportunity of sensing

1490
01:02:41,740 --> 01:02:38,240
something much more fundamental than the

1491
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:41,750
history of who you think you are in the

1492
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:45,130
mind you know let me just say that

1493
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:49,010
beyond the kind of Eckhart Tolle Oprah

1494
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:51,650
Winfrey kind of New Age thing that most

1495
01:02:57,240 --> 01:02:54,170
people get what he's saying about

1496
01:03:00,750 --> 01:02:57,250
science the science of consciousness is

1497
01:03:03,310 --> 01:03:00,760
much much closer to what leading

1498
01:03:04,870 --> 01:03:03,320
researchers are saying you know I just

1499
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:04,880
had an interview with dr. Don Hoffman

1500
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:07,490
who was really one of the top physicists

1501
01:03:14,830 --> 01:03:10,490
in the world and he will tell you that

1502
01:03:17,100 --> 01:03:14,840
every experiment we do on quantum

1503
01:03:19,450 --> 01:03:17,110
mechanics and on the quantum field

1504
01:03:22,780 --> 01:03:19,460
brings us to the conclusion that

1505
01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:22,790
consciousness is fundamental which is

1506
01:03:28,030 --> 01:03:25,130
the same thing that physicists were

1507
01:03:29,770 --> 01:03:28,040
saying 100 years ago and even Einstein

1508
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:29,780
says at the end of his life after

1509
01:03:33,220 --> 01:03:31,370
battling it for so long

1510
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:33,230
so I guess returning to kind of this

1511
01:03:39,220 --> 01:03:36,290
earlier point if you can't get

1512
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:39,230
consciousness right if you're playing

1513
01:03:44,500 --> 01:03:42,290
with consciousness is an illusion

1514
01:03:47,890 --> 01:03:44,510
we're biological robots in a meaningless

1515
01:03:50,380 --> 01:03:47,900
universe as your atheist friend their

1516
01:03:52,150 --> 01:03:50,390
colleague no doubt believes you're not

1517
01:03:53,950 --> 01:03:52,160
even in the game you're not in the game

1518
01:03:56,620 --> 01:03:53,960
science wise I mean you're just you're

1519
01:03:59,890 --> 01:03:56,630
flattered thing it you know so Eckhart

1520
01:04:02,440 --> 01:03:59,900
Tolle isn't just saying Oprah Winfrey

1521
01:04:07,330 --> 01:04:02,450
New Age stuff he's talking about

1522
01:04:09,790 --> 01:04:07,340
cutting-edge science so that's my pitch

1523
01:04:12,250 --> 01:04:09,800
what say you yeah that's interesting

1524
01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:12,260
point and I guess I would say that well

1525
01:04:17,680 --> 01:04:14,450
this couple answers to that question

1526
01:04:19,180 --> 01:04:17,690
that there is a movement in religious

1527
01:04:21,009 --> 01:04:19,190
studies and other fields that is

1528
01:04:23,109 --> 01:04:21,019
extremely interested in

1529
01:04:25,149 --> 01:04:23,119
justice from different perspectives one

1530
01:04:27,209 --> 01:04:25,159
there's a lot of work being done in

1531
01:04:29,559 --> 01:04:27,219
neuroscience and cognitive science

1532
01:04:32,679 --> 01:04:29,569
looking at for example what happens

1533
01:04:35,979 --> 01:04:32,689
during meditation or prayer that's a

1534
01:04:38,609 --> 01:04:35,989
whole emerging field and then there's

1535
01:04:40,359 --> 01:04:38,619
also a whole body of scholarship on

1536
01:04:42,489 --> 01:04:40,369
understandings of consciousness for

1537
01:04:45,370 --> 01:04:42,499
example when I was in graduate school I

1538
01:04:47,049 --> 01:04:45,380
did a lot of work on yoga chara Buddhism

1539
01:04:49,749 --> 01:04:47,059
which is all about mind and

1540
01:04:52,149 --> 01:04:49,759
consciousness and understanding reality

1541
01:04:55,449 --> 01:04:52,159
itself as a product of mind like so

1542
01:04:56,699 --> 01:04:55,459
there's work being done and sort of from

1543
01:04:58,899 --> 01:04:56,709
a neurological perspective there's

1544
01:05:00,669 --> 01:04:58,909
philosophical research on consciousness

1545
01:05:02,139 --> 01:05:00,679
so it's not as though people who studies

1546
01:05:05,229 --> 01:05:02,149
aren't interested in the question of

1547
01:05:08,199 --> 01:05:05,239
consciousness but in my own work I mean

1548
01:05:10,569 --> 01:05:08,209
I'm a historian and so I look at what

1549
01:05:14,739 --> 01:05:10,579
people do and the texts they leave

1550
01:05:17,559 --> 01:05:14,749
behind and what we can sort of see and

1551
01:05:19,509 --> 01:05:17,569
so I'm not uninterested in questions of

1552
01:05:21,429 --> 01:05:19,519
consciousness but that's not really what

1553
01:05:22,779 --> 01:05:21,439
I write about in my academic work even

1554
01:05:25,349 --> 01:05:22,789
though I recognize its importance for

1555
01:05:28,319 --> 01:05:25,359
the people that I'm writing about

1556
01:05:31,299 --> 01:05:28,329
there's nothing I've already bashed the

1557
01:05:33,429 --> 01:05:31,309
ivory tower is still typing academia

1558
01:05:36,909 --> 01:05:33,439
thinks I won't I won't push that any

1559
01:05:40,239 --> 01:05:36,919
further but I will maybe end with the

1560
01:05:43,989 --> 01:05:40,249
question that I kind of began with is so

1561
01:05:47,469 --> 01:05:43,999
how does all that sit though with your

1562
01:05:49,329 --> 01:05:47,479
personal spirituality whether whatever

1563
01:05:52,719 --> 01:05:49,339
that is whether it's a you know more of

1564
01:05:54,189 --> 01:05:52,729
an atheistic materialistic worldview or

1565
01:05:55,719 --> 01:05:54,199
whether it's kind of more of an

1566
01:05:57,429 --> 01:05:55,729
expansive I know you've done a lot of

1567
01:06:00,029 --> 01:05:57,439
work in the East and you just said a lot

1568
01:06:03,309 --> 01:06:00,039
of meditation work how do you square

1569
01:06:05,949 --> 01:06:03,319
beyond your role as an academic who has

1570
01:06:08,649 --> 01:06:05,959
to kind of publish where do you sit with

1571
01:06:10,659 --> 01:06:08,659
some of that yeah well we don't have

1572
01:06:16,539 --> 01:06:10,669
that much time so I'll give you a short

1573
01:06:17,859 --> 01:06:16,549
answer first I to go back to the point I

1574
01:06:20,829 --> 01:06:17,869
made earlier about being kind of a

1575
01:06:26,109 --> 01:06:20,839
radical agnostic so I haven't seen God

1576
01:06:27,609 --> 01:06:26,119
myself and so I seem that if there is

1577
01:06:30,219 --> 01:06:27,619
something beyond this life I'll find

1578
01:06:33,219 --> 01:06:30,229
that out when I die but in my own sort

1579
01:06:34,930 --> 01:06:33,229
of personal life I I think of myself

1580
01:06:36,550 --> 01:06:34,940
more as a nature mystic

1581
01:06:38,890 --> 01:06:36,560
most profound experiences I've had have

1582
01:06:40,660 --> 01:06:38,900
been in the out-of-doors I'm an amateur

1583
01:06:44,050 --> 01:06:40,670
mycologist I'm really fascinated by the

1584
01:06:45,790 --> 01:06:44,060
interconnections between for example the

1585
01:06:48,670 --> 01:06:45,800
world of fungi in the world of plants

1586
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:48,680
and trees and so that's where I find the

1587
01:06:52,780 --> 01:06:50,210
most meaningful kinds of spiritual

1588
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:52,790
experiences and the greatest sense of

1589
01:06:57,609 --> 01:06:55,970
something beyond my ego or the most

1590
01:07:00,130 --> 01:06:57,619
profound experience of us sort of loss

1591
01:07:04,359 --> 01:07:00,140
of ego in the natural environment so

1592
01:07:07,270 --> 01:07:04,369
that's kind of my personal spirituality

1593
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:07,280
I guess you could say philosophically

1594
01:07:12,609 --> 01:07:09,530
the the worldview that makes most sense

1595
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:12,619
to me is Buddhism and Buddhist ideas

1596
01:07:17,770 --> 01:07:15,890
such as emptiness and no self that that

1597
01:07:18,880 --> 01:07:17,780
sort of makes the most sense to me when

1598
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:18,890
I look at the world around me and it

1599
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:21,970
fits with the way I understand nature -

1600
01:07:27,250 --> 01:07:24,890
ok I love that although you know I've

1601
01:07:28,930 --> 01:07:27,260
done a bunch of interviews on Buddhism

1602
01:07:30,339 --> 01:07:28,940
and particularly the you know it's

1603
01:07:35,079 --> 01:07:30,349
another interesting phenomenon that kind

1604
01:07:36,730 --> 01:07:35,089
of American atheistic Buddhism which is

1605
01:07:39,420 --> 01:07:36,740
really kind of a roll-your-own I mean

1606
01:07:41,559 --> 01:07:39,430
there's really no traditional

1607
01:07:44,589 --> 01:07:41,569
understanding of that and you know

1608
01:07:48,700 --> 01:07:44,599
Buddhism is a mesh in a culture that

1609
01:07:50,410 --> 01:07:48,710
completely believes in the survival of

1610
01:07:53,020 --> 01:07:50,420
consciousness after death completely

1611
01:07:54,849 --> 01:07:53,030
believes in reincarnation completely

1612
01:07:56,370 --> 01:07:54,859
believes in the extended consciousness

1613
01:07:59,620 --> 01:07:56,380
realm that we're talking about with

1614
01:08:02,109 --> 01:07:59,630
Aleister Crowley and all that stuff so I

1615
01:08:05,290 --> 01:08:02,119
mean where are you with that stuff in

1616
01:08:07,870 --> 01:08:05,300
terms of your Buddhist kind of the

1617
01:08:10,319 --> 01:08:07,880
leanings yeah I don't consider myself a

1618
01:08:12,040 --> 01:08:10,329
practicing Buddhist I simply meant that

1619
01:08:14,559 --> 01:08:12,050
particular strands of Buddhist

1620
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:14,569
philosophy makes sense to me in terms of

1621
01:08:18,760 --> 01:08:16,250
how I look at the world and they sort of

1622
01:08:21,519 --> 01:08:18,770
fit with the world that I see around me

1623
01:08:24,370 --> 01:08:21,529
and Buddhism is a vast complicated set

1624
01:08:26,709 --> 01:08:24,380
of traditions and the one that makes

1625
01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:26,719
most sense to me is sort of early Indian

1626
01:08:32,050 --> 01:08:30,290
Buddhism that develops and first few

1627
01:08:33,459 --> 01:08:32,060
hundred years after the death of Roberta

1628
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:33,469
so what we would now call tera vaada

1629
01:08:38,019 --> 01:08:36,290
Buddhism I think you're you're

1630
01:08:40,749 --> 01:08:38,029
describing at least what you're alluding

1631
01:08:42,309 --> 01:08:40,759
to I think fits more with later Mahayana

1632
01:08:44,499 --> 01:08:42,319
and Vajrayana forms of Buddhism which

1633
01:08:45,939 --> 01:08:44,509
are interesting too but I have more

1634
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:45,949
affinity with the earlier Buddhism I

1635
01:08:49,190 --> 01:08:47,130
guess

1636
01:08:50,870 --> 01:08:49,200
you're a mystic I get it you just want

1637
01:08:56,260 --> 01:08:50,880
to kind of keep it under keep it under

1638
01:09:01,250 --> 01:08:56,270
your hat that's cool I'm a mystic but um

1639
01:09:04,280 --> 01:09:01,260
but I certainly don't rule out spiritual

1640
01:09:06,620 --> 01:09:04,290
experiences so our guests again has been

1641
01:09:07,970 --> 01:09:06,630
dr. Hugh Urban we talked about a couple

1642
01:09:09,830 --> 01:09:07,980
of books on this show that you're going

1643
01:09:13,070 --> 01:09:09,840
to want to check out the church of

1644
01:09:15,410 --> 01:09:13,080
scientology and Zorba the Buddha you're

1645
01:09:17,720 --> 01:09:15,420
working I know on a bunch of other

1646
01:09:19,190 --> 01:09:17,730
interesting stuff you are such a great

1647
01:09:22,490 --> 01:09:19,200
and accomplished writer

1648
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:22,500
tell folks more about what's coming up

1649
01:09:27,620 --> 01:09:24,930
and in general how they can follow your

1650
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:27,630
work well I just finished a book that

1651
01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:29,370
has been accepted by University of

1652
01:09:35,540 --> 01:09:34,170
Chicago Press called secrecy that's the

1653
01:09:38,150 --> 01:09:35,550
main title we haven't settled on a

1654
01:09:39,740 --> 01:09:38,160
subtitle there's something like silence

1655
01:09:42,470 --> 01:09:39,750
power and religion or something like

1656
01:09:45,890 --> 01:09:42,480
that and it's a look at six different

1657
01:09:47,060 --> 01:09:45,900
forms ability to secrecy that developed

1658
01:09:49,310 --> 01:09:47,070
from the mid 19th century to the present

1659
01:09:51,470 --> 01:09:49,320
so I have a chapter on Scientology a

1660
01:09:55,460 --> 01:09:51,480
chapter on Freemasonry I have a chapter

1661
01:09:56,780 --> 01:09:55,470
on theosophy I have a chapter on the

1662
01:09:59,690 --> 01:09:56,790
five percenters which are an offshoot

1663
01:10:02,330 --> 01:09:59,700
Nation of Islam and I have a chapter on

1664
01:10:04,700 --> 01:10:02,340
sex magic so that's been a lot of fun to

1665
01:10:06,170 --> 01:10:04,710
work on so it looks at sort of six

1666
01:10:11,450 --> 01:10:06,180
different modalities of religious

1667
01:10:12,920 --> 01:10:11,460
secrecy that range from sort of social

1668
01:10:14,600 --> 01:10:12,930
resistance and protection of religious

1669
01:10:17,270 --> 01:10:14,610
groups to the other in spectrum I look

1670
01:10:18,530 --> 01:10:17,280
at Lucy's terrorism - so that's one

1671
01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:18,540
project and then the other is an

1672
01:10:22,400 --> 01:10:21,090
ethnographic project on Tantra in

1673
01:10:24,650 --> 01:10:22,410
northeast India that would look at

1674
01:10:26,690 --> 01:10:24,660
living forms of Tantra as it's practiced

1675
01:10:29,930 --> 01:10:26,700
on the ground today in northeast India

1676
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:29,940
I'm really interested in that can you

1677
01:10:35,840 --> 01:10:32,850
kind of offer up any little tidbits on

1678
01:10:38,270 --> 01:10:35,850
what you've understood maybe are some

1679
01:10:40,490 --> 01:10:38,280
misunderstandings we have or anything

1680
01:10:44,360 --> 01:10:40,500
about the Tantra as it's really

1681
01:10:45,920 --> 01:10:44,370
practiced yeah so Tantra and the

1682
01:10:47,210 --> 01:10:45,930
American popular imagination as we've

1683
01:10:49,940 --> 01:10:47,220
talked about is usually identified with

1684
01:10:52,310 --> 01:10:49,950
sex or nookie nirvana and in Indian

1685
01:10:54,470 --> 01:10:52,320
popular imagination today Tantra as you

1686
01:10:56,990 --> 01:10:54,480
see like in Bollywood film is almost

1687
01:11:00,440 --> 01:10:57,000
always all about black magic not so much

1688
01:11:04,010 --> 01:11:00,450
about sex but about sorcery and

1689
01:11:05,930 --> 01:11:04,020
corpses and stuff like that but there is

1690
01:11:09,050 --> 01:11:05,940
still a living tradition of tantric

1691
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:09,060
practice in the region of Assam which is

1692
01:11:12,470 --> 01:11:10,530
northeast India it's a little bit of

1693
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:12,480
India that sticks up on the other side

1694
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:14,610
from Bangladesh and then the Northeast

1695
01:11:18,620 --> 01:11:16,650
they're still a very old and living

1696
01:11:22,490 --> 01:11:18,630
tradition of tantric practice that this

1697
01:11:24,740 --> 01:11:22,500
is not as authentic as you can get these

1698
01:11:26,240 --> 01:11:24,750
days so I'm looking at that and there

1699
01:11:28,250 --> 01:11:26,250
are elements of sexuality in there

1700
01:11:29,540 --> 01:11:28,260
elements of black magic but there's lots

1701
01:11:31,060 --> 01:11:29,550
of other stuff going on there too that's

1702
01:11:33,440 --> 01:11:31,070
really fascinating

1703
01:11:38,210 --> 01:11:33,450
so this there's spirit possession for

1704
01:11:41,690 --> 01:11:38,220
example that's one aspect of it but

1705
01:11:43,850 --> 01:11:41,700
they're also fudge with rituals that I

1706
01:11:46,850 --> 01:11:43,860
really didn't really really old

1707
01:11:49,190 --> 01:11:46,860
traditions and so I've been working on

1708
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:49,200
that off and on since about 2000 I hope

1709
01:11:54,050 --> 01:11:52,410
to finally finish a project on that so

1710
01:11:56,240 --> 01:11:54,060
you're right in the suit man and I'm

1711
01:11:57,710 --> 01:11:56,250
pushing you get on all this stuff but

1712
01:12:00,260 --> 01:11:57,720
but you're writing soupy right in the

1713
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:00,270
middle of it so how do you I guess

1714
01:12:05,270 --> 01:12:02,130
there's a final kind of question because

1715
01:12:08,480 --> 01:12:05,280
I'm curious how do you approach that

1716
01:12:09,890 --> 01:12:08,490
without kind of jumping all the way in

1717
01:12:11,990 --> 01:12:09,900
because you know one of the guys I

1718
01:12:14,990 --> 01:12:12,000
really enjoyed on this show is an

1719
01:12:16,910 --> 01:12:15,000
anthropologist er he has a German called

1720
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:16,920
the para anthropology Journal because

1721
01:12:21,380 --> 01:12:18,930
because dr. Jack Connor I don't know if

1722
01:12:23,780 --> 01:12:21,390
you familiar with him he's in the UK but

1723
01:12:26,510 --> 01:12:23,790
his kind of thing is like hey from an

1724
01:12:30,290 --> 01:12:26,520
apricot an anthropological standpoint at

1725
01:12:34,250 --> 01:12:30,300
some point you can't be totally outside

1726
01:12:36,140 --> 01:12:34,260
of this thing because of all the things

1727
01:12:38,270 --> 01:12:36,150
by observing it we're affecting it

1728
01:12:42,290 --> 01:12:38,280
anyway maybe we need to understand more

1729
01:12:44,750 --> 01:12:42,300
deeply and accept their their reality of

1730
01:12:46,490 --> 01:12:44,760
this extended consciousness realm even

1731
01:12:48,380 --> 01:12:46,500
though it doesn't fit within kind of

1732
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:48,390
this narrow confines that we have and

1733
01:12:51,590 --> 01:12:49,890
yeah I guess you're bumping up against

1734
01:12:54,290 --> 01:12:51,600
that in your own way what do you think

1735
01:12:55,730 --> 01:12:54,300
well I wrestled with that question for a

1736
01:12:58,520 --> 01:12:55,740
long time really since I was a graduate

1737
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:58,530
student was my first book which was my

1738
01:13:01,160 --> 01:13:00,000
dissertation was really grappling with

1739
01:13:02,630 --> 01:13:01,170
the question of how you study an

1740
01:13:04,460 --> 01:13:02,640
esoteric tradition like contra do you

1741
01:13:07,460 --> 01:13:04,470
become an initiate you remain kind of a

1742
01:13:10,370 --> 01:13:07,470
distant outsider and what I've sort of

1743
01:13:12,470 --> 01:13:10,380
come to over the years is that it's

1744
01:13:13,990 --> 01:13:12,480
always much messier than just insider

1745
01:13:15,760 --> 01:13:14,000
versus outsider and

1746
01:13:18,250 --> 01:13:15,770
the deeper you go the more you become

1747
01:13:20,230 --> 01:13:18,260
the term I would use is entangled with

1748
01:13:22,840 --> 01:13:20,240
it because you make friends they have

1749
01:13:24,730 --> 01:13:22,850
you over to their house for dinner you

1750
01:13:26,560 --> 01:13:24,740
get to know their children more and more

1751
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:26,570
even if you're even if you're not a full

1752
01:13:31,210 --> 01:13:29,930
initiate you become enmeshed and

1753
01:13:33,660 --> 01:13:31,220
entangled with the tradition and

1754
01:13:37,660 --> 01:13:33,670
complicated ways and that means becoming

1755
01:13:39,670 --> 01:13:37,670
just been in ritual practices and and so

1756
01:13:41,740 --> 01:13:39,680
it then it becomes question how far you

1757
01:13:44,290 --> 01:13:41,750
feel comfortable going or how far you

1758
01:13:47,170 --> 01:13:44,300
can go because you're still culturally

1759
01:13:49,870 --> 01:13:47,180
an outsider right so and that's that's

1760
01:13:52,510 --> 01:13:49,880
where every researcher has to navigate

1761
01:13:54,730 --> 01:13:52,520
where they fit in that to relationship

1762
01:13:57,940 --> 01:13:54,740
so I'm still working through that myself

1763
01:13:59,830 --> 01:13:57,950
now awesome man I love how you keep a

1764
01:14:02,380 --> 01:13:59,840
very cool demeanor about all that stuff

1765
01:14:04,240 --> 01:14:02,390
but I think there's a depth there that

1766
01:14:05,980 --> 01:14:04,250
is really gonna fascinate a lot of

1767
01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:05,990
people again it's been absolutely

1768
01:14:10,510 --> 01:14:08,210
fantastic having you on the show thanks

1769
01:14:12,310 --> 01:14:10,520
for allowing me to come into some other

1770
01:14:13,900 --> 01:14:12,320
areas and it's great I hope people

1771
01:14:17,260 --> 01:14:13,910
really check out your work we need more

1772
01:14:19,750 --> 01:14:17,270
of your stuff ok thank you is a fun

1773
01:14:21,820 --> 01:14:19,760
conversation thanks again to dr. Hugh

1774
01:14:25,720 --> 01:14:21,830
Urban for joining me today on skeptic oh

1775
01:14:29,250 --> 01:14:25,730
the one question I'd guess IT up canned

1776
01:14:33,190 --> 01:14:29,260
religious studies remain agnostic about

1777
01:14:35,440 --> 01:14:33,200
consciousness oh I went on and on about

1778
01:14:39,250 --> 01:14:35,450
this so I won't add anything more but I

1779
01:14:41,320 --> 01:14:39,260
would be very interested see what you

1780
01:14:43,450 --> 01:14:41,330
think here what you have to say of

1781
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:43,460
course the easiest place to do that is

1782
01:14:48,220 --> 01:14:46,090
to reach me through this get to go forum

1783
01:14:51,400 --> 01:14:48,230
you can connect with other people who

1784
01:14:54,070 --> 01:14:51,410
enjoy the show kick around some ideas to

1785
01:14:57,250 --> 01:14:54,080
all that good stuff you can also jump

1786
01:15:00,910 --> 01:14:57,260
over to the sceptical website ske PT Iko

1787
01:15:03,700 --> 01:15:00,920
com you'll find all the shows there many

1788
01:15:06,790 --> 01:15:03,710
many over 400 of them available for free

1789
01:15:11,380 --> 01:15:06,800
download mp3 no firewall no ads no

1790
01:15:13,690 --> 01:15:11,390
anything and while you're there and

1791
01:15:16,440 --> 01:15:13,700
while you're thinking about this think

1792
01:15:20,500 --> 01:15:16,450
about if there's anyone who you think

1793
01:15:22,720 --> 01:15:20,510
needs to hear this particular show share

1794
01:15:24,250 --> 01:15:22,730
with them and tell me why you're sharing

1795
01:15:27,100 --> 01:15:24,260
it with them and who you think needs to

1796
01:15:27,660 --> 01:15:27,110
hear this stuff we'd love to hear more

1797
01:15:30,750 --> 01:15:27,670
from

1798
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:30,760
I have plenty of more stuff coming up

1799
01:15:38,310 --> 01:15:33,730
down the pike stay with me for all of

1800
01:15:40,230 --> 01:15:38,320
that until next time take care and bye